So... SoR Mania, anyone?

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Iceferno on Sat Sep 30, 2017 4:50 am

Mr.Din wrote:Please no 3d graphics. way too easy to fuck up with that. SFIV and V look ugly as hell. Just give me some nice smooth 2d animations with insane details mania style, SEGA's probably going to budget this game anyway so less is more. Designs could use a more modern spin but nothing too crazy, the characters don't really look all that dated so it shouldn't be too hard to update their designs and keep it classic. Of course the gameplay definitely has to have some updates with games like FnR, DDN, hell remake itself existing.

What about the cast though? Should Zan return? I don't see a reason for him not to but there also isn't much reason for him to either. New characters, maybe start with the veterans and have unlockable allies and enemies, keep the roster fun and as closed to balanced as possible.
I was talking about the style. It doesn't have to be strictly 3D, just pseudo, like the originals are, but a tiny bit more defined. Sonic Mania gave the characters weird bright colours, which didn't quite sit well with me.

You just gave me a thought though: character stages/story modes. Stage order could be changed for different characters, with a few exclusives thrown in for each. And when it came to 2 players, you could have co-op stories. Might be complicated to achieve, but would be a step above Knuckles having his own distinct path in S3&K (and I've heard his Mirage Saloon is different, but have pretty much given up on that game and only enjoy the music).

Perhaps Zan could be DLC? You could have the fan favourites to start off with. Could even make it so only Adam, Axel, and Blaze are available from the start and you have to unlock the others.

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Cosmo on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:12 pm

You know, one of these days, I should lay down some of my game concepts. I had my fair share of ideas for SoR1, SoR2, an in between filler title, and SoR3 with a fixed plot. I also have a prequel called Streets of Rage Zero with the only recognizable character being Adam, and a sequel that I titled "Streets of Rage: The New Generation" which is my 20 years later modern take on SoR. Its concept features teams that consist of three characters per team, and each have two story arcs to complete. Then you can unlock characters during certain ones, and if you finish all of them, you can level up with enough stuff that you can finally take on the final boss. I should lay this out some day because I have a few questions, seeing what people may like and what might make them want to lynch me. Panic

The two big ideas for gameplay is the introducing of blocking, like in Super Double Dragon, and SFA/FF3 caliber super moves. Also, counter attacks, and FF3/SoRR style running.
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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Rockmanxx on Mon Oct 02, 2017 11:45 pm

Mr.Din wrote:Not going to lie, it's pretty sad that we have to resort to bashing another fan base to get a point cross about a game we hold dear.
You have to understand where i'm coming from, i'm a millennial who grew up in the PS2 era with some Arcade classics like metal Slug&cadlicas&dinos. And imo Sonic never deserved a single sequel let alone a bazillion of them. The last great modern game i played was Alien: Isolation and much to my Horror it was made by SEGA! Oh God no! they'll be busy making 10,000 more Sonic games before they start thinking about Alien:Isolation 2 Or SoR4 Or Phantasy Star Or Shinobi  etc ip's of actual quality.

Remake set a standard that's going to be tough to live up to
Not really, all Remake did was take all SoR games, polish them graphically&control wise.  A new 2d game or a new 3d ambitious game like God Hand would blow the Remake out of water. A 3d game like that one recent cancelled remake(thank God) was just awful. I could beat up people in just about any 3d open world game, a 3d SoR would need to be unique and innovative like God Hand to be good.  My best bet is on a 2d SoR4 with more moves&open world, it shouldn't be 2.5 though they just have weird laggy physics which kills the fun of playing a beat em up, i really wanted to like Double Dragon Neon but its just not fast&responsive enough.

I also disagree with Cosmo that BK3 "feels like a reboot" if anything BK2 was straight up remake of BK1 in terms of story. Mr.X was defeated but then somehow returns and we fight him the exact same location again. BK3 had Mr.X but only as a brain which makes sense, there is only so much beating a human body can take.

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Mr.Din on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:24 am

Rockmanxx wrote:
You have to understand where i'm coming from, i'm a millennial who grew up in the PS2 era with some Arcade classics like metal Slug&cadlicas&dinos. And imo Sonic never deserved a single sequel let alone a bazillion of them. The last great modern game i played was Alien: Isolation and much to my Horror it was made by SEGA! Oh God no! they'll be busy making 10,000 more Sonic games before they start thinking about Alien:Isolation 2 Or SoR4 Or Phantasy Star Or Shinobi  etc ip's of actual quality.

Well the equation is actually pretty simple. Games cost money to make, Sonic prints money, SEGA makes more sonic games, SEGA makes more money and if it's worth their time, effort and money SEGA makes other games. I hate to break to you but these IPs that we love to beg for follow ups to are niche and these little ventures are going to cost money and may not even break even as far as making the money back.

Shenmue III is being made not because SEGA planned to do it but because Yu Suzuki had to take initiative to make it happen and already people are whining and bitching about the quality of the game seemingly forgetting the fact that the raised funds don't even scratch the surface of what the first two games cost to make separately.

That's the reality, SEGA is a business first. It would be very stupid of them not to make a million sonic games and while you may not like the series, the fans do and the fans speak SEGA's language. Complaining about what can only benefit SEGA gets us nowhere.

Not really, all Remake did was take all SoR games, polish them graphically&control wise.  A new 2d game or a new 3d ambitious game like God Hand would blow the Remake out of water.

Well I tend not to compare 3d brawlers to 2d ones, apples to oranges there. As far as 2d beat em ups and the SoR series goes, that polish was well needed and yes remake actually did set a new standard. Very few beat em ups out there rival it when it comes to content and gameplay. To be frank even the original games (especially SoR2) stand up as being the best in the 2d BEU genre. To take that formula and polish it with a new can of paint that's amazing for a fan game.

You're right though a good quality brawler that advances the genre could indeed blow remake out of the water and hell that's what we want for the genre, better beat em ups like Fight n Rage (yes goddamnit I'm going to plug the fuck out of that game PLAY IT NOW) of course I'm quite certain you do too!

A 3d game like that one recent cancelled remake(thank God) was just awful. I could beat up people in just about any 3d open world game, a 3d SoR would need to be unique and innovative like God Hand to be good.  My best bet is on a 2d SoR4 with more moves&open world, it shouldn't be 2.5 though they just have weird laggy physics which kills the fun of playing a beat em up, i really wanted to like Double Dragon Neon but its just not fast&responsive enough.

I'm completely with you on that, I mean on one hand I'm glad SoR was so damn memorable that so many companies wanted to take a crack at making a follow up but none of the proposed games had that wow factor. We need something like Sonic Mania, the moment you see the trailer you JUST KNOW the game is going to be great even if you're a skeptic like myself. 2d is just the way to go imho to even get the same result out of 2.5D is going to take effort that I don't think SEGA is going to put in and I already have the Yakuza series for my 3d brawler fix.

I also disagree with Cosmo that BK3 "feels like a reboot" if anything BK2 was straight up remake of BK1 in terms of story. Mr.X was defeated but then somehow returns and we fight him the exact same location again. BK3 had Mr.X but only as a brain which makes sense, there is only so much beating a human body can take.
Yeah bk3 being a reboot is a bit out there as a description. I do see where he's coming from as far as 3's placement but that kind of rolls into what you're saying given that 2 was indeed a remake of it's own. Hell if anything 2 is the black sheep of the series for better or for worse given it's missing some stuff from SoR1 that imo wasn't really needed (except being able to escape grabs).

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Cosmo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 1:52 am

Mr.Din wrote:Yeah bk3 being a reboot is a bit out there as a description. I do see where he's coming from as far as 3's placement but that kind of rolls into what you're saying given that 2 was indeed a remake of it's own. Hell if anything 2 is the black sheep of the series for better or for worse given it's missing some stuff from SoR1 that imo wasn't really needed (except being able to escape grabs).

I am only referring to it in terms of story placement. Not gameplay. Gameplay doesn't feel like a reboot/remake in any game, but rather SoR2 feels like a big leap forward and takes the most liberties from its prequel, while SoR3 feels like SoR2 with a little bit of added content. One could argue that 3 feels less like a sequel and more like an upgrade to SoR2, though some sequels work like that anyway, so that point stands kind of moot. But in terms of story, namely BKIII, it doesn't feel like a progression. It feels like you could put it before SoR2 and it wouldn't feel out of place. There is almost nothing to connect it to SoR2. I suppose it could count as a sequel to SoR1 in terms of story, but at the same time, it could almost stand alone as its own if it weren't for Axel and Blaze being reinstated as cops. I should also stress that I used the term "feels" like a reboot rather than actually seems to be one despite sequel claims. Razz
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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Mr.Din on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:03 am

Cosmo wrote:While SoR3 feels like SoR2 with a little bit of added content.

*shudders* I wish 3 played like 2 with added content lol. way too many changes to the structure for better and worse.
But in terms of story, it doesn't feel like a progression. One could argue that 3 feels less like a sequel and more like an upgrade to SoR2, though some sequels work like that anyway, so that point stands kind of moot. It feels like you could put it before SoR2 and it wouldn't feel out of place. There is almost nothing to connect it to SoR2. I suppose it could count as a sequel to SoR1 in terms of story, but at the same time, it could almost stand alone as its own if it weren't for Axel and Blaze being reinstated as cops. I should also stress that I used the term "feels" like a reboot rather than actually seems to be one despite sequel claims. Razz
Well the only issue with that theory is that 3 pretty much finalizes the whole Mr.X being out of body or even dead thing so 2 couldn't really take place after 3, not to mention skate's involvement in 3 feels more familiar to the team rather than in 2 where it comes off as them just meeting him under pretty bad circumstances. Skate also clearly looks younger in 2 and finally the story itself states that the trio broke off to do their own thing and only came back to celebrate a year later, that's a very small window of time for 3 to fit in if at all.

However I could see 3 happening INSTEAD of 2 because of the fact that it makes no mention of 2 at all, even Skate being around could simply be explained as familiarity with the team and Adam's family. This also coincides with the fact that Ancient developed 2 as opposed to the original team that developed 1 and 3

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Cosmo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 2:33 am

Mr.Din wrote:*shudders* I wish 3 played like 2 with added content lol. way too many changes to the structure for better and worse.

Alright, allow me to word it better here. It feels like a tweaked SoR2. That one is on me for not being more specific. LOL

Mr.Din wrote:Well the only issue with that theory is that 3 pretty much finalizes the whole Mr.X being out of body or even dead thing so 2 couldn't really take place after 3, not to mention skate's involvement in 3 feels more familiar to the team rather than in 2 where it comes off as them just meeting him under pretty bad circumstances. Skate also clearly looks younger in 2 and finally the story itself states that the trio broke off to do their own thing and only came back to celebrate a year later, that's a very small window of time for 3 to fit in if at all.

All of the last information in only mentioned in the western SoR2 manual, which can easily be discarded as non-canon given it's nowhere in the game itself and I don't think it's in the japanese manual. And no, I'm not saying that information couldn't be made canon/official, but when we're talking the BKIII story, it continues on from BKII, meanwhile that information was only given in the manual of SoR2. Plus, there is nothing in SoR2 to indicate that they didn't already know Skate like that. Again, the only thing we get is the western SoR2 manual's story, but again, that information is nowhere to be seen in the game, plus it's not mentioned in the japanese manual. The game itself could present itself that way, and it was meant for that, but if you turned it around and had it like he went with them on a journey before all this, then SoR2 happened, well, it's vague enough that you could manipulate it into sounding like that. Also, let's not forget, in the bad ending, Mr.X is shown sitting in his chair breaking a wine glass. Imagine that goes on, and then SoR2's story happens.

SoR3's story, on the other hand, is a different beast. That one, as nonsensical and incoherent as it is, actually does go out of its way to connect itself with SoR2's story. That one clearly comes after SoR2. No doubts about that one.

But if we were to talk about it being a reboot caliber story, or a standalone, its mention of the syndicate returning is never stated. It talks like they just kinda know they're around. It could at least give some background information on how they came back despite being taken down once or twice. SoR2 did that. It also hardly feels like it continues on from anything. The closest we get is Axel and Blaze being reinstated as cops. None of the dialogue references anything. There is also no indication that they have ever seen Shiva before. Hell. Skate's line makes it sound like he's some random guy they never met before and don't recognize.

As for them looking older. Well, that doesn't come too much in terms of looks. It was meant to be a sequel to SoR2, and I wouldn't deny that. I wouldn't even say that it should be a prequel to SoR2. Just the weird way the game's story was made could give off that impression. Perhaps this is where I lost some of you people? LOL But no, I never said it was meant to do that nor that it ever should. Just that this is a weird instance where they usually try to connect these games, and there is clear indication that what has happened has. Especially in a game that features cut-scenes and attempts to detail the story further. It's just the case of bad writing on their part that could give off the wrong impression.
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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Mr.Din on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:01 am

[quote="Cosmo"]
Mr.Din wrote:*shudders* I wish 3 played like 2 with added content lol. way too many changes to the structure for better and worse.

Alright, allow me to word it better here. It feels like a tweaked SoR2. That one is on me for not being more specific. LOL{/quote]

no worries jus poking fun Razz
snip
Well all in all you still have to consider the fact that 2 takes place a year after 1 which regardless is still a small window of time for a game like 3 to happen story wise but that's only in response to when you said you could fit 3 before 2 and it wouldn't feel out of place. I feel like that's a bit of a stretch and an exaggeration given the events of BK3 alone is some pretty heavy stuff to just gloss over in 2. How did Mr.X get his body back? If we're going by the city hall ending how would they know Shiva's name if they never met him? The city would also have to have recovered from the bombing in BK3 to have been in peace like the 2's intro states, among other things it just wouldn't fit.

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Cosmo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 3:05 am

But to get back on topic and not cram this post full of irrelevant stuff (I'm guilty of it too, don't get me wrong Razz ) As said previously, I would mostly just like to see a new game. An SoR Mania type of deal would be nice, but at the same time, we already have remake. I would like to see either a reboot of the franchise, or a sequel. Or if we were to do a Sonic Mania type of deal, then it would be better off making nods to SoR, but altering them up enough so it's its own game. Possibly you enter a re-imagined version of the old levels, like the dreamer park, or you get to explore new areas of the park not seen before. Perhaps the story takes place after the main three games, and you do explore old levels, but it has the case of "I remember this place" kinda like final fight one, but the stages are not remade and are instead altered and changed up with different bosses and enemies, and new gimmicks, mechanics, and obstacles. Personally, I would like it to be more like what Sonic Mania possibly was going to be in Christian's image before Sega of Japan stepped in and urged them to include classic levels. A classic style SoR game with all new levels, enemies, and bosses.

Also, and this is the last comment I am going to make on this, considering this should bring it curtains.
Mr.Din wrote:Well all in all you still have to consider the fact that 2 takes place a year after 1 which regardless is still a small window of time for a game like 3 to happen story wise but that's only in response to when you said you could fit 3 before 2 and it wouldn't feel out of place. I feel like that's a bit of a stretch and an exaggeration given the events of BK3 alone is some pretty heavy stuff to just gloss over in 2. How did Mr.X get his body back? If we're going by the city hall ending how would they know Shiva's name if they never met him? The city would also have to have recovered from the bombing in BK3 to have been in peace like the 2's intro states, among other things it just wouldn't fit.

I wasn't talking about placement speaking logically or in terms of semantics. I am merely saying in terms of story presentation. It seems like it could, but obviously, it isn't really meant to be. I think I went overboard trying to explain it because I didn't realize I made it come off as more serious than I meant it to be. But chronologically, no, it wouldn't make sense and it is more than a stretch. It's an impossibility. If you changed up the setting dates, it could seem like a prequel to SoR2, but going in terms of chronology, at least the official one given, it's impossible.
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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Mr.Din on Tue Oct 03, 2017 6:23 pm

I know we like to lean on Remake as being our Mania but let's address a few things.
1. Remake isn't official. Because of this the game can't be updated (which being over half a decade old now really could use one), many hardly know of remake's existence (really odd imo but true) and it's not canon which brings me to the next point.

2. Remake doesn't follow canon: I wasn't a huge fan of some things in 3 and even in 2 such as the brain, Adam's kidnapping etc but being honest I don't really like remake's take on the story either. It feels there for the sake of, some cutscenes convey proper context others just come off as random babbling or even causing confusion (rudra anyone?) and in some cases doesn't even make sense (is the SoR1 route a flash back route or not? the team treats Shiva like someone they just met.) the character bios don't help either, Adam was previously kidnapped so SoR2 happened already is this a retelling of 3? Why is Neo X at the factory, is he just a random robot, would've been better to just name him Robot Y in that case. tons of questions with this newly established canon.

3. Remake lacks gameplay identity: Being the jack of all trades is a double edged sword, on one hand we have what we need here to recreate the original experiences unless you're a fan of the third game unfortunately. On the other hand, Remake tries so hard to cater to most aspects of the originals that it doesn't establish it's own identity and even worse becomes a mess when you play past a casual level.

For example, SoR3 characters will always do certain things regardless of what changes you make to the options like not using forward special in a grab, having the meter is frustrating on the other hand for SoR1/2 because the lack of invincibility in alternate specials. What's the point in having all these options when they don't effect certain things anyway? There's no consistency between the cast, AI or even the routes themselves. Remake is awesome but let's be honest if SEGA had done these things the community would give them a serious thrashing.

An SoR Mania game should take the best aspects of each of the games, toss out the archaic and outdated stuff (or leave them as unlockable extra options that don't effect the main game) and build on that, the game can take place after the original trilogy and establish it's own identity but regardless it will still be a reboot considering the time gap between releases. The question being is the goal a sequel that finishes the series or a reboot that revives and continues it?

Revisiting stages isn't really a bad thing if given the proper context and redesigned, combining stuff from the original trilogy thus providing a new experience. We have our typical tropes in each game anyway, Some sort of district, an industrial area, an attraction area, a boat, a factory etc, every game revisits these ideas in some way or another so how "original" are we talking? We also have to consider the size of the game and how the game is structured. What if this game takes an open world approach where you can go about the city, revisiting older locations makes more sense wouldn't it?

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Re: So... SoR Mania, anyone?

Post  Cosmo on Tue Oct 03, 2017 11:37 pm

Mr.Din wrote:Revisiting stages isn't really a bad thing if given the proper context and redesigned, combining stuff from the original trilogy thus providing a new experience. We have our typical tropes in each game anyway, Some sort of district, an industrial area, an attraction area, a boat, a factory etc, every game revisits these ideas in some way or another so how "original" are we talking? We also have to consider the size of the game and how the game is structured. What if this game takes an open world approach where you can go about the city, revisiting older locations makes more sense wouldn't it?

I agree with pretty much everything said. Well, what I mean is having new 'originals' as in, a new boat, or a new bar or whatever. But going back, maybe there is one time where they revisit the old barbon bar, but it's different now. The setup is the same, but it looks different, you can explore more areas, and the bartender is no longer barbon and is instead someone else. Maybe this guy jumps over the counter, or you have to chase him around? Or maybe it goes the remake path and has an upstairs, and you have to follow him upstairs? Maybe even upstairs he is trying to throw stuff at you? That's just one idea. Otherwise, I would mainly say all new locations with new setups. The one stage I wouldn't mind seeing make a return is the dreamer park, but that's only if they make you enter new locations, or the alien house is no longer there, or if it is, you don't go in it. The alien house and Pirates boat could be seen as reference in the background, and maybe you can enter those places through some weird secret, but generally, it doesn't guide you there. I would also like to see the dreamer park in general because there are many areas you could explore that they couldn't do due to cart space. I am sure there is some way to explore those again, but if you want to do that, make it different. I just don't want to relive the past through a new game. I never got that. My mind works that, if you want to relive the past through that game, play the old one. It's not like you can't play it anymore. All the new game does is make you experience something you already know, but makes it feel newer yet somehow more tired.
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