[Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

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[Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  BigDarsh on Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:07 pm

I've never make a mod, and that's why this tutorial is not very solid (beta). I've made a lot of testing, and lot of fix though. I have studyed game mechanics for many side scrollers and I saw so many "Fan Made Open BoR" and "Fan Made SoRRV5 Mods" with some random scaling, that I think I could help with theorical approach and guidelines of "battle design" (the core of the gameplay). This is under construction, I work on it for sometime by now and feedback would be appreciated
(green color for important debate theme)

I/- Difficulty Target:
You have to know that depending on the difficulty set, the IA act differently. Some mooks become very tough while breaking a scale (like Slum/Goldie), and some ennemy become stronger depending on the stage they feature (like Barbon who is an ultimate blocking machine in stage 7-8 ).

That's a lots of components to play with for a battle designer which is part of the modding.

Let's define your target first:
Easy - Normal : These two difficulty shares a lot of attribute gameplaywise. The main thing you have to keep in mind when making battle for those difficulty is this

  • It is a setup design for casual gaming. It has to be fun, it has to features variety, and do not much drag too long, except if you have a solid plot with nice visual to support the lenght. Keep in mind this though: "the longer is the mod, the harder it is for the modder to keep variety in his battle."
  • The ennemy don't have "steal food ability". That means you can know precisely when they will refill life gauge. You can add some extra "feeders" in easy too.


Hard : This difficulty will target more willing players, but not experienced players. The mooks mobility is the same as "Easy-Normal" but mooks are a bit more "clever" in reactivity cluster. They will use their anti air attacks quite often, and they will steal food if they can. All in all, it is "the challenge mod for casual gaming". I think it is important to change a lots of battle because the AI gap/life scale are not enough to make the mod more challenging in SoRRv5.0a.

Hardest - Mania: This difficulty will target experienced player. The mooks mobility is like in v5.0 and they will fight to the top of their ability, involving the use of their moveset the best they can. Only experienced gamer with a good knowledge of AI Behavior can make intense and creative battle for those difficulty IMHO. For Make those battle hard without being tediously long, it's all about ennemy combination, and not extra life bar (which make the mod boring, and not very shiny).

II/-Economy
II-A/-Feeders
To balance your mod, you can use feeders. As you can't decide who drop what item, the best idea is to put several feeders in the mod and it will balance by itself. Plus it's a good way to overid the item limitation per scene. However Feeders will not replace food pick up. It just a tool for balancing inconsistancies for all difficulty, and improve the strategy cluster of your battle (especially when combined with pits).


"Feeder" Type A: Human Meat choose a low level mook with low life that is here to drop random food. (You can change it according to the theme of the stage, but the Idea is UnderCoverCops BoxMan)
"Feeder" Type B: BTU Classic Fatties always (or almost) drop food
"Feeder" Type C: Easter Food Seeker can drop food if you throw them. It's a bit tricky but fun so it fits casual gaming too
"Feeder" Type D: Balance One of the ennemy will drop food.

Note about Feeder Type D: I don't like this one because there is no consistancy behind this (not great for building atmosphere/ambient of the mod, or memorized who drop food), but hey, it works and it's functionnal. The main problem that occurs with this kind of "feeder" appear if there are "pits" in your mods. If you know what kind of mook can drop food the instant you see it spawn, then you know that you have to preserve him and not pit him into the hole. If it's a random mook, the player have to play once (maybe more than once) to understand he waste food. Easy, Normal and Hard difficulty are design for casual gaming and that's why I think feeder Type D is not a very good idea for lower difficulty. It has more sense to use those kind of feeder "D Type" with pits for Very Hard and Mania which target people who like challenge and brain scratching.

Trucker (elite mook) always drop a can in default palette. He's not really a feeder in very hard and mania, it is a very pityful reward. He is a feeder in easy difficulty. In Normal and Hard, it regives the gauge you lost while beating him.

Galvice and Cody always drop extra 1UP in default palette. You can add some of them in easy-normal scaling of your mod if you think some parts are a bit challenging for casual gaming. They are not very hard to defeat in those difficulty, and it offers 1UP that will not be avaible on hard or upper difficulty. You can use those mooks in harder difficulty too of course, because it can create some tension when combined with pits (don't waste your ressource!)

II-B/-Droppers
You have to be carefull with "droppers" too, here is some importants stuff.
Droppers are mooks that carry an item (food or points). Feeders are a specific type of Droppers if you understand well the concept. You can use the random setup if you feel unease with SoRRv5.0a points system. Keep in mind that fatties (Bongo 2/3) will randomly loots food from candy (low value) to burger (40% of a life gauge) while other mooks will randomly loots points in random setup.


The main problem you can encounter with the random setup is that you will not control anything, sometime they loot, sometime they don't. It is not really a problem to tell the truth, you just do not benefits of the depth that can help to make your mods more shiny. Let's dive into it.


The female mooks tends to loot very valuable items (gems stone = 750pts) in random setup. Although it is random, it is still a lot of points if you look outside of the box, and if you compare with "item drop setup".

When you set a mook on "Item Drop" (turning him into a "dropper") the biggest item it can loot is bucks which is 500pts (which is big). This is where you can see how pricey is a gem stone. If you set, let's said, Nora SoR1 with "Item Drop" she can't randomly loot her gem stone anymore, but will always loot something from the coin (10 pts) to the bucks (500pts).

"Dropper" and "Feeder" can be exploit in your battle too, for hard or higher difficulty. A mook who carry an item can't pick up food. That mean if you create a short scene (elevator, arcade brawl,  Wink toilets gang bang  Shocked  and such ) with one food pick up (like a burger) and you set all the mook as "feeders" or "droppers" you know the player will have his food safe. Very interesting when combined with pits (or elevator with barrier)

Reminder:

  • Ash will drop pin (10 000 pts!) while on default palette.
  • Trucker, Galvice, Cody will always drop their "item" (can/extra 1UP) while on default palette.
  • Changing scene refill 8HP (104HP is a full Life Gauge).


III/- Life Gauge Scale (guidelines):
Motorbike: If you want to make them "one jump kick die", the value to respect, whatever the difficulty, is 8. (Blaze 2 and Axel 2 deal 8 HP and they have the weakest of the game). Whatever the fan favorite of the "casual gamer" or the main character of the "hard core gamer", he can kill him in one jump kick.

Jet2 and Jet3 : Those boss rareley can be combo. It's all about "one hit". In SoRRv5.0a, all the characters have more attacks than jump attack to defeat them (def special, sometime blitz or off special). Keep in mind that a 2 extra life bars Jet2, followed by some low level mooks (Galsia 2 and Donovan for example) will be pretty long for casual gaming. I think going over these value will just make the "police call" frustration come into play. It will become tedious more than anything, and you want your mod to be fun for those people right?
Recommandation if use as a stage boss: from 208 to 312 HP maximum
Think to adjust depending on his role in your mod, the difficulty and the stage he feature.
Note: Even for Mania, I think going over 416 HP is just making the battle tedious (Need feed back from experienced player here, maybe just my opinion).
Note: If you use Jets as a mid boss in late stage, I think 262 is the maximum value to not make your battle boring.

Heavy Boss: Bongo SoR1, Abadede, R.Bear
Those Boss are very big visualy speaking and I think it's often a good idea to give them quite a big amount of life even if they are mid stage (3-5) Boss material in easy and normal (to give consistancy to your mod). Bongo always need to be followed by mooks (or another Bongo SoR1). This boss is very easy to defeat in any difficulty because of the advanced mobility mechanics of SoRRv5.0a (he was design for SoR1 with low mobility). R.Bear is the toughest of  the 3 in easy-normal-hard difficulty.
Recommandation if use as a Stage Boss: from 262 to 366HP

Note: If you use Bongo SoR1 as a mid boss (or such) you can tone down the scaling from 104 to 262HP

Don Vecta wrote:I suggest to scale not only bosses but sub-bosses as well. Sub-bosses can NEVER have more HP than the bosses of that stage, out of common sense (except a Jet, maybe).

IV/-Boss Material
Using Boss as Mook and Mook as Boss is not something to do without a very good experiencing of the game battle mechanics, but there are exception. Here is a small list that you can follow without the "fear of mistake" to expand your array of battle design.

Slash and/or Trucker can be Boss Material for stage 1 or 2
Ninjos and/or Ninjas2/3 can be Boss Material for stage 1 or 2 or 3
Kickboxers can be use as Boss Material for stage 1 or 2 or 3
SoR1 Judo Twins can be use as a regular mid tiers mooks while using 3rd name slots (and onwards)  
Bongo SoR1 can be use as a mid boss (like Jack 2, Slash, Trucker etc)
Mona and/or Lisa can be use as mid boss (like Jack 2, Slash, Trucker etc)
Barbon can be use as boss material for any stage
Barbon can be used as a mid boss material in late stage (5 to 8 )
Antonio or Zamza or Thouzer can be used as a mid boss material from stage 4 to stage 8

Some help with Boss Material Scaling: (W.I.P)
Early Stage: 1-2-3-4
Antonio, Thouzer, Bongo SoR1
Mid Stage: 3-4-5-6
Jet 2/3, Abadede, R.Bear
Late Stage: 5-6-7-8
Jets 3, Shiva 2/3 , Rudra, Mr X, Molecule and Particle

V/- Life Gauge System for mook
This is a system I have made for normal/hard difficulty. It is not to follow strictly, it is more a spirit guide to help you to understand the "meaning" of a value in life gauge. I create this scaling comparing many solid side scroller in history of BTU and apply it to SoRRV5.0a (feed back would be appreciated).

Low Health: 26 to 32 HP
This is no threat at all, great for feeder type A, or early stage low level mooks for low difficulty.

Mid Health: 46 to 54 HP
A regular String is between 32 to 44
A regular Suplex is 32. The best toss of the game (Judo Leg Throw) is 32 too.
Only Max can defeat him in one string or one throw from the back; and of course Skate2 Migraine.
Only very powerfull blitz (rarely safe) or Off Special (cost something) can kill him in one "action".
This is how this value merge. It is great for low level mooks

High Health: 62 to 70HP
This guy will get up whatever he take in his face. The only thing that can kill him is one of Max Back Throw. It is great for mooks you want to be tough whatever is role in your battle (mid boss excluded).
Bongo 2 or 3 shouldn't have less life than this (IMHO)

Very High Health:  78 to 86HP
Two regular string will not kill him (Axel and Max exclude)
Two suplex will not kill him (Max exclude)
Even an atomic drop or Axel2 Off Special will not kill him.  
I think this is enough to show you what kind of guy this is!

I can be hero, just for one day!: 94 to 104HP
This guy have the same gauge as you. It is enough to show you how this mook feel!

Focus Me: 142 (104 +40) to 154 (104 +50)
Can be use for mid boss material or peculiar mook in standard battle.
This will extend the battle and make the mod boring if you use this for too many kind of mooks or battle.

Stars: 208 (104 x2) and onward.
I think those guy are not welcomed before the couple of last stages of your mods for standard mook. They will extend the battle and make the mod boring if you use this for too many kind of mook or too soon in the mod progression.

VI/-Battle Design and Ennemy Combination (Under Construction)
I will only speak here about Mook/Boss that you can't throw in your battle -even if it fits your theme- since gameplay wise, they are really specific: They "need" (guideline as awlays) to be pair up wisely.
Jets Followers:
Spoiler:
You have a wide array of mook to follow Jets in easy-normal difficulty. They don't use their anti air attacks that much and they are pretty slow to move so feel free to choose something that match the theme of the stage (layers/plots). Keep in mind to not go with high tiers mook though (ninja 2, ninja 3, ninjos, trucker, slash etc) for obvious reasons, except if you know what you are doing.

Electra3:
She is a coward, a passive agressive. It can be tedious if not used on purpose since cowardness can make a battle boring "Will you come back and fight dude?" XD.
Let speak about some kind of setup of a good use of them in battle so you can figure out how this character can shine in battle. (guidelines)
Spoiler:

Electra 3 benefit from an invincible backdash to escape, an invincible long wake up animation (bow down stance) and a long range electric whip to "whip your ass" while you fight other people. Creating a battle with only Electra 3 (even in high number) can make the battle a bit tedious especially if they benefit of a lot of HP. But Electra 3 is very welcomed to create tension in battle in combining her with other mooks.

-Punk Mook
Galsia1 agressive, Galsia2, Galsia 3, Signal1/2/3, Donovan2/3, storm, vice. All those guy can be pair up with Electra 3. They are more agressive than her and it balance the fight.

-Sub Boss or Boss
The player may focus those guy for obvious reason, and Electra 3 will shine in this situation since she will make the player forget she's here. Plus as she take her time to stand up, and as she like to back dash when you rush her up, everything is in place to make the player focus the boss/sub boss more than her and she'll become the perfect "infinite combo breaker on thouzer/antonio/bongo" and all those kind of SoR1 Boss!.  Cool 

-Electra2 / Nora 1 / Soozie
If you want to create a "girl combat" because it matching your theme (a whore house or something XD), just pair Electra 3 with one of those mook which are a lot agressive. Electra 2 is a long range ass kicker (jump kick and electric whip), Nora 1 does not benefit of the electric whip but have access to the invincible bow down stance (coward attribute here, like Electra). Soozie is the most dangerous of them all (even more than Judo Babe set in "mook type" IMHO) No whip, no bow down stance, but huge hitbox on her jump kick, highly damaging "slap grab" high, and invincible back dash.

-Gun Men (Bronze and such)
I don't remember who was the first to do that (CajNatalie? Zarzak?) but they have a brillant idea here!
Gun Men are a bit coward but not as much as Electra. Though they benefit from a Toss which create distance, and an extra long range (gun). If Electra 3 is in the place too, I think you get the idea of what can happen here! Plus If you add pit into the mix = tension!
Regarding the theme, whore and mafiosi always work well right?  Cool 

-Bongo2/3
Very fun to pair Bongo2/3 with Electra 3. I will not go in depht here because I think you get the idea, if not, try it! fun guarantee!


VII/-Collision Map and Pits

Collision map is a part of the difficulty. The more Z Axis range you give the player, the more it is easy for him to fight. That's why resizing like Don Vecta/WSe do in their mods is something very well welcomed. First it look great visually (character and layer have good size) but more than all, it keep the challenge and the tension in the battle.

If you create narrow space + fire, that spice up the Dish even with an easy Boss such Souther is! (try H.U.N.T.E.R peole!).

If you create a narrow bridge (or such) every characters with long range can become formidable ennemy (Soozie, Haku-oh, Gunmen for example).

If you create pit, some low tiers or mid tiers mook break a scale, let's speak about them:
Signal become a very dangerous foes in the roster! Basicly, this is the weakest mook of the game (especially Signal 2) because his main attack is his toss which you can safe land by holding UpButton C
If your battle feature pits, it become an instant kill attack from half screen! (You hear me right!). If you want a make a mod that is called "The Revenge of the Signal Clan!" just use pit+signal!

Gunmen (Bronze and such) become very powerfull in the pitting cluster too. First they have the "one kill toss" (like Signal) but it is glitched and can give them invincibility frame too, and of course they have gun to spice up the dish!

Girls and Asian Mook: Everything that feature longs range make the pits a real danger and Jump Kick/Whip are the two other types of attack that become a very high threat in a pits arena. Tiger which feature the block ability is particulary strong in "pit fighting".

Galsia 1 Bat: Be very cautious with them. Those guy are tough without pit (range, fast mobility, cowardness, and fast strike with high damage). Replace "high damage" by "potential one hit kill" in a "pit battle". XD
Sure you can use them, just keep in mind what it involve. Donovan are less dangerous with their pipe since they attack very slowly. Storm is stuck in the middle.

Ash: Basicly, this guy is a grappler. He have one toss from the back, and one slam from the front. The main tactic to avoid damage against Ash is to back turn when he try to grab you so you can safe land. You can't do that anymore when pit are in the place (one hit kill!). He become really nasty in pit arena and he is more than welcome here since he has no other attack (no anti air, no invincible slide, no fast base ball bat). I really think Ash shine in "pit fighting".

VIII/-Progression and Tension

This is maybe the most important part of that tutorial because it will speak about the very spirit of a side scroller since it exists. A side scroller can be considered by lots of people like a "no brain game" with "push Button B button to get your way through the game".

Those people don't have a clue of the very core of the side scroller: "progression and tension".

Capcom (CPS) games are very good tutorials of the structure of a good side scroller. They are a tones of other side scrollers which are very good too (Irem, Jaleco, TechnosJapan or Konami for example) but Capcom is those one that are pretty clear in their building (D&D series exclude: which are very good too!).

Stage 1: The Turorial. 1 or 2 scenes, low level mooks, and a very basic boss (which often become sub boss later in the game).
CPS BTU stage 1 is here to warm up the player if he already know the game or to make the player learn the game mechanics if he don't know them. Simple.

Stage 2: This is "the true stage 1". It is where the player need to sharp his reflex a little and where he has to apply everything he learned in "the tutorial". This stage is not that difficult, but a bit longer, introduce stronger mooks and the Boss is way tougher than the first one.

Stage 3 and onward: The lenght extend, the number of mook on screen extend, the combination become more and more tricky, the food start to become a precious pick up, and Bosses / Sub Bosses are tougher to defeat.

Last Stage: They are especially long. For example, AvP stage 7 represent 1/3rd of the game. This is the final feast. Everything that you meet in the game will come back stronger (more life, more tricky combination etc).

Let's back on topic. If you look at great mods that feature this forum, a lots of them don't seems to follow the "Capcom Way" since they feature routes (some easy; some hard), hub (you can pick your first stage), or bonus room that you may found around your path, but if you look outside of the box: you will see that actually, whatever how complex they are in their model, they follow the "Side Scroller Spirit" which is the Capcom Model I showed you.

Progression and Tension. The more you advance in the mod, whatever the route you pick, the stages become harder and harder, and longer and longer as the player progress in the game.

That's why, when you test your mod, before releasing it, it is very important to check if your mod create this tension or not. Why do I say that?

Because if it do not, your mod will become "The no brain push Button B button to get your way through the game". The "progression and tension" is the key to create an empathy with the player gameplay wise. Sure you have cutscenes, sure you have dialogue, but they are only here to support the core gameplay. If the empathy is not created gameplay wise, then the player will get bored and it will not work.

Look at your mod as a meal. Whatever you want to cook, you can't put the first course in the middle of the meal, and you can't start your lunch with a dessert. It just not work, nevermind how good is your cooking.

"Progression and Tension" works because the player's reflex and willing to fight is more and more sharp as he advance in the game. He reaches his peak of "focusing" when he reaches the last stage because all others stages he got through have made him stronger: "like a shonen", or a Japanese RPG game which give you XP each time you defeat someone. Your character is stronger at the last stage than at the first stage.

In a Sidescroller, it is not the character that is stronger when he reached the last stage (stars move excluded), it is "the player" thanks to the progression and tension very concept.

You sure can put some pause in the tension to make the player breath or in order to make your plot advanced, or to tell a joke. You sure can build alternate route which are easier or harder or for alternate ending. You sure can put bonus room for extra rewards or extra challenges too, but you never have to mess, IMHO, with "the progression and tension" global idea, the very core of the Side Scroller Spirit, which was explain in this tutorial.


Conclusion:
There are no rules to make a mod. I'm serious. Everything I just told you can be bypass with creativity. There are many way to cook, many way to make love, many way to write music, and many way to create a mod, and there are no policeman to tell you that you "break the rules!".

The purpose of this tutorial is to help modder to understand what they are doing, not tell them what they have to do to make an ass kicking mod.

If you know what you are doing, then everything is possible. This tutorial is just here to give you an hand, neither here to climb the mountain for you nor to show you the path to follow. Just to give you an hand.


Last edited by BigDarsh on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:41 pm; edited 10 times in total

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Shiva on Sat Jan 11, 2014 2:29 pm

Wow, thanks for tutorial  Very Happy 

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Don Vecta on Sat Jan 11, 2014 4:53 pm

Great tutorial! Really good pointers and advice for modders. I know you haven't made a mod but as a player who understands the mechanics of the engine it is possible to make guidelines like this. This could be handy especially for those modders who don't test their mods constantly as they progress, usually testing only the area they're populating and not playing the whole mod until that point to see whether the game needs a full balance of lives, energy or length.

Said so, a couple of pointers.

- Judos must be set at the third name slot onwards to be considered mooks. the slot 1 (Yasha) is the one dedicated to grabs and throws and slot 2 (Onihime) has the AI programmed to spam jumping kicks.

- My personal usage of feeders are depending of the difficulty. I use the D type feeders set in Very Hard or Mania, as they can be a reward from passing a usually harder wave. I don't like to make my easier levels way too easy with feeders roaming all over the place cuz then again the very few challenge you give it's long gone.

- The feeders in pits areas I use them as part of a challenge: would be worthy to whoop the ass of this long lasting punk for extra health? Or should get of rid quickly and keep moving? This can be very challenging if the mook in question is a high HP Cody or Galvice or Ash (which pin gives the same amount of points like a gold bar).

- I suggest to scale not only bosses but sub-bosses as well. Sub-bosses can NEVER have more HP than the bosses of that stage, out of common sense (except a Jet, maybe).

If there's more pointers I'd add them, in the meanwhile, these are my two cents.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  BigDarsh on Sat Jan 11, 2014 11:28 pm

Thank you! Glad you approve, and glad you help with feed back.

- Judos must be set at the third name slot onwards to be considered mooks. the slot 1 (Yasha) is the one dedicated to grabs and throws and slot 2 (Onihime) has the AI programmed to spam jumping kicks
.
Thanks, Added in the Tutorial.

- My personal usage of feeders are depending of the difficulty. I use the D type feeders set in Very Hard or Mania, as they can be a reward from passing a usually harder wave. I don't like to make my easier levels way too easy with feeders roaming all over the place cuz then again the very few challenge you give it's long gone.
I'm with you. Adding life is not very gorgeous to make battle easier, and I love D type feeders when playing Very Hard. I'm just thinking for modder who have trouble for balancing their mods in lower difficulty. But definitly :"glue < weilding"

- The feeders in pits areas I use them as part of a challenge: would be worthy to whoop the ass of this long lasting punk for extra health? Or should get of rid quickly and keep moving? This can be very challenging if the mook in question is a high HP Cody or Galvice or Ash (which pin gives the same amount of points like a gold bar).
Totally agreeing you (I love your mods, you know it :p ).
The only thing I say is, "D Type Feeders + pits" do not fits casual gaming (easy , normal, hard). You can use A Type Feeder + Pits (they will identify them since it is the same guy as usual), or D Type Feeder with no pits for lower difficulty. For Very Hard and Mania, you can do pretty much what you want since those mods will be replay (challenge mode).
Cody/Ash/Galvice are very easy to identify.  Wink 
You should have a look on the spoiler tag below, it is the update to clarify my points about Feeders.


- I suggest to scale not only bosses but sub-bosses as well. Sub-bosses can NEVER have more HP than the bosses of that stage, out of common sense (except a Jet, maybe).
Added. I will maybe make a section for "scaling boss and sub boss gauge" (I've just did mooks and special Bosses like Jet and Bongo SoR1). What do you think of my life gauge scaling for mooks btw?

Last Update:
Feeder Section:
Spoiler:
To balance your mod, you can use feeders. As you can't decide who drop what item, the best idea is to put several feeders in the mod and it will balance by itself. Plus it's a good way to overid the item limitation per scene. However Feeders will not replace food pick up. It just a tool for balancing inconsistancies for all difficulty, and improve the strategy cluster of your battle (especially when combined with pits).

Note about Feeder Type D: I don't like this one because there is no consistancy behind this (not great for building atmosphere/ambient of the mod, or memorized who drop food), but hey, it works and it's functionnal. The main problem that occurs with this kind of "feeder" appear if there are "pits" in your mods. If you know what kind of mook can drop food the instant you see it spawn, then you know that you have to preserve him and not pit him into the hole. If it's a random mook, the player have to play once (maybe more than once) to understand he waste food. Easy, Normal and Hard difficulty are design for casual gaming and that's why I think feeder Type D is not a very good idea. It has more sense to use those kind of feeder "D Type" with pits for Very Hard and Mania which target people who like challenge and brain scratching.


Galvice and Cody always drop extra 1UP in default palette. You can add some of them in easy-normal scaling of your mod if you think some parts are a bit challenging for casual gaming. They are not very hard to defeat in those difficulty, and it offers 1UP that will not be avaible on hard or upper difficulty. You can use those mooks in harder difficulty too of course, because it can create some tension when combined with pits (don't waste your ressource!)

dropper section (II B)
I've Added Ash in the new "Dropper Section"

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Feb 25, 2014 7:51 pm

Sorry for double posting, it is just to tell people that this tutorial is finished.

The Ennemy Combination part is not finished, but I prefer to wait for The Mook Encyclopedia to be finished first before updating this part. As it will take time to finish the Encyclopedia, this tutorial won't be update for a long time (except if they are feedback).

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Saven on Tue Feb 25, 2014 8:30 pm

Your last post in this thread was a month ago. We wouldn't get on you for that. Razz

But anyways, this is good news. This tutorial should make anyone trying to scale their mods' lives much more easier. Smile
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A Newbie's Guide to SorMaker Enemy Placement (WIP)

Post  KFCutman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:21 am

Moved to Don Vecta's encyclopedia.


Last edited by KFCutman on Fri Nov 27, 2015 3:54 am; edited 2 times in total

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Charco on Thu Nov 26, 2015 6:58 am

We have a SorMaker forum.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  BigDarsh on Thu Nov 26, 2015 7:01 am

And I already started a thread for this
http://www.sorrcommunity.com/t252-tutorial-beta-difficulty-scaling-and-battle-design

Nonetheless, I love your inputs! Thank you, it will helps modders. Wink

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  KFCutman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 2:26 pm

Charco wrote:We have a SorMaker forum.

Sorry, I wasn't sure if it would belong in there, I didn't know if it would belong there because I thought that section was only for SorMaker mods.

BigDarsh wrote:And I already started a thread for this
http://www.sorrcommunity.com/t252-tutorial-beta-difficulty-scaling-and-battle-design

Nonetheless, I love your inputs! Thank you, it will helps modders. Wink

Thanks! I'll be sure to improve it.
As a side note, this was more based around how the enemies behaved and less on how to place them.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Don Vecta on Thu Nov 26, 2015 3:28 pm

Okay, double posting to add notes and correct you some wrong info about certain enemies. Smile

KFCutman wrote:
Galsia (SOR2)

SOR2 Galsia is an extremely simple enemy and can be used easily almost anywhere.
His only attack is a very weak and slow punch that does not do much damage and cannot knockdown.
When holding a knife, he will move in a diagonal direction and move forward if colliding with a wall. Touching the player will deal damage. He can’t pick up his knife if he drops it.
In a group, they are extremely strong if one of them gets a hit, because none of the attacks can knockdown, and you’ll see yourself with very little windows to use a special and knock all of them down.
Priority: Very low (unarmed), relatively low (knife)

Galsia's super strength? One-frame jabs. Deceivingly harmless but a real pain in the ass. Auto-hit. When he wants to hit, it WILL hit. Heavy disruptor of ANYTHING you do. It is almost 85% sure that in a 1-on-1 fight with him, you wouldn't go perfect: he'd hit you successfully at least once.

KFCutman wrote:
Donovan (SOR2)

Galsia’s shirtless cousin, this guy is MUCH less threatening.
He has an attack consisting of two punches and one uppercut, the uppercut can knockdown, which is why he’s less threatening.
With a pipe, he has a moderately strong attack, but it’s so slow, it mostly gets countered before and after the attack. He also can’t grab his pipe when it’s on the ground.
His uppercut can be performed early as an anti-air move.
In a group, it’s less threatening than SOR2 Galsia because of the uppercut, which does knockdown, allowing an easy escape.
Priority: Lowest (unarmed), Lowest (pipe)

He's exactly as threatening as Galsia due of his one-frame jabs. Unharmed he's dangerous in heavy bulks.

KFCutman wrote:
Garnet/Soozie

Though extremely simple, her attacks can be troublesome news, especially on maps with holes. Do note that she will always jump away after doing her attacks, except the jump kick.
She has four attacks.
The first one is a double slap that is slow, like Donovan’s pipe attack, but hits really hard.
Her second attack is a flurry of slaps, which does more damage the more you get hit, but beware if you used your special recently, or you’ll take a lot of damage
Her third is a quick slap that knocks down.
Her fourth and most powerful is a jump kick. If you see her walk in place, she’s likely going to jumpkick your face in if you’re not prepared. It does a LOT of damage, trust me.
On a side note, with maps that have holes, if you don’t know what you’re doing, prepare to have your lives counter smashed in the balls countlessly from above, because the high damage of the jumpkick and the falling in holes damage will seriously hurt you. Sure, Garnet will likely end up in the hole with you as well, but if you get quickslapped while next to the hole, welp, you know what’s going to happen. I’ve lost enough lives to know.
Priority: Somewhat Threatening, Greatest Threat (on maps with holes)

Holes, also as turn of tide, is her own weakness. Sometimes to evade or space away, she'll jump back... and if there's a pit, she's gone! Razz

KFCutman wrote:
Yasha/Onihime (SOR1)

For some reason, setting the name to the default (Onihime) will make your life living hell.

Setting the name to something else? You’ve got a common mook.

What both twins have is a simple four-hit combo, with knockdown. They both also have a jumpkick, which hurts.
What Onihime has, however, is a grab, then a suplex, that does damage similar to falling in a hole. The worst part about Onihime is her damned throw. If you don’t recover from that, that’s the STRONGEST ENEMY ATTACK IN THE GAME. It does about half an entire health bar of damage. Yeah.  She also has a spinning jump that doesn’t do much other than set up for her suplex.
Setting the name to anything else will only give Onihime her four-hitter and her jumpkick, nothing else.
Priority: Somewhat Threatening (Yasha), Great Threat (Onihime)

Setting the name to Yasha will trigger the flying kick whore (as in... whoring flying kicks, not her.. well... dunno her private life, who cares?). Onihime is the throw specialist.

Now, I see Yasha more dangerous than Onihime. Yasha's flying kicks can go in a Y axis where you at. Damaging, high priority and spammable. Onihime's throws are dangerous only if not saferolled or grabbed from behind. But besides that she's cake.

The rest of the judo behavior (3-hit combo) and evading backflips are easy. She can be placed as standard mook with no problem. Now, careful, if she's the last (wo)man standing, she'll turn her behavior immediately as Yasha's, so be careful.

KFCutman wrote:
Yamato

Throw him randomly as a regular spawn? More annoying than hard.
Set him as boss intro 2? Good luck, you’ll need it.
Form 1 (regular spawn, boss intro 1) isn’t that hard, to be honest. It’s mainly his damned shurikens that are the problem, they do so much damage, and don’t cause knockdown, but can be attacked. Form 1 can also teleport near the player and do a weak sword attack. Get close, and he’ll move back (get away), and then dash and slice. When he’s near the edge, and the player is close, he’ll jump to the other side. He can also jump and throw three powerful shurikens. Knocking him down makes him move back, but as long as he’s not off-screen, Max makes Yamato look like a joke.
Killing a Form 1 will cause it to fade away.
Form 2 (boss intro 2) gives Yamato all of form 1’s properties and attacks, but a few new attacks. Yamato will jump around when doing his shuriken attack. He also has a charging attack that isn’t that powerful, and always moves diagonally. He also can become invisible and throw shurikens, that knockdown this time, but Yamato is invincible during this time.
Killing a Form 2 will make him do a special animation, which will destroy every item onscreen, then explode.
Fun fact: The items exploding can damage players and surviving enemies.

Yamato 1 has a splicing attack where he'll divide in two and do a simultaneous katana attack. He's completely invulnerable, but it's easy to avoid.

Yamato 2's disappearing attack can be easily traced when Yamato's in water. Yet, he's still invulnerable, but at least you can predict where he'll reappear and retaliate quickly.
KFCutman wrote:Cody

It’s Donovan, except he’s white and is cosplaying as his favorite video game character, Cody Travers, from Final Fight.

Otherwise, it’s just SOR3 Donovan, without the item and food grabbing and the pipe.
Killing one with the default name and palette and the item setting set to auto or drop item will make it drop a 1-UP.
I usually make them spawn in secret areas, or with 9 bars of HP during a boss fight to reward players who can successfully kill Cody in time. Otherwise, just change the palette or name and you’ve got a mook.

Correction: he still can drop the extra life if you change his name, only his palette must be in default (same case for Galvice and Trucker).
And no, he'll chug down any item or food as any other enemy.

KFCutman wrote:

Abadede
• Ridiculously OP. Nuff said.


“Burn in hell, you mumbling abomination!”
Spy - 2007
This guy is easily the strongest member of the Syndicate by a landslide. He has some of the strongest attacks in the game (Strongest attack is Onihime’s throw)
First, his damn charge. The first hit is light, but the second is PAIN. Jumping could resolve the problem, if he didn’t travel at the speed of SANIC. Second, his threehitter. The first two don’t hurt, but his chop is the real terror. Third, his jump, which is the second strongest enemy attack in the entire game, and DOESN’T KNOCKDOWN, which sets you up for his suplex, which hits so hard, you’ll be in shambles after that combo. Or, he’ll throw you, which is weak and easy to recover from. He might even beat you with a spoon, but that’s extremely rare for him to do.
Unless you’re Max, good luck hitting him. He has a defensive special, similar to yours, except he becomes invincible, and does around the same damage you do to Galsias and Donovans when you defensive special; that means PAIN.
For usage, he could easily be the final boss.
Priority: Greatest Threat x 9001
[/quote]Co-signed. Final Boss material.

BTW, I think your AI behavior could be useful in our unfinished encyclopedia. Please, read it, check your notes and add yours. It is time to dust out this thread.

http://www.sorrcommunity.com/t233-the-ultimate-enemy-encyclopedia-w-i-p

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  KFCutman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:14 pm

Thank you, but I still would like my posts in a separate thread, or as mentioned, in some sort of help with your encyclopedia.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  Don Vecta on Thu Nov 26, 2015 5:46 pm

It is not an option. There's no point in opening new threads, there are rules about it.

So, please, refrain of opening another thread with the same content.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  KFCutman on Thu Nov 26, 2015 8:23 pm

In that case, please remove everything related to my post. I have a copy of it just in case, so it doesn't matter if it's removed.

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  CajNatalie on Thu Nov 26, 2015 9:34 pm

Wow. Rolling Eyes
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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  iceweb38 on Thu Nov 26, 2015 10:49 pm

It's an interesting tutorial.
However, I think having two encyclopedia would be too confusing so it's best to stick with one and build upon it Smile

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Re: [Tutorial Beta] Difficulty Scaling and Battle Design

Post  DarkThief on Fri Nov 27, 2015 2:10 am

With a pipe, he has a moderately strong attack, but it’s so slow, it mostly gets countered before and after the attack. He also can’t grab his pipe when it’s on the ground.

He can pick it up with the "search weapons" option (AI editor) set to SoR3. (I kinda like it that way, it's more consistent with the other punks)
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