General Character Discussion

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  bareknuckleroo on Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:41 am

Mr.Din wrote:I personally believe tiers don't belong in beat em ups. outside obvious stuff like Max/Shiva being god tier it all really boils down to the player.

You don't believe some characters can be better than others and rated as such, except for the characters who are better than others. That's... not logically consistent. It's simply a reality that not all characters in games are balanced to be equally powerful, and some characters exist specifically to be more challenging than others. Sure, players can be successful with bad characters as well as good characters, but that doesn't mean that means there isn't an objective difference in strength between the characters' abilities.

Tiers are simply a way of quickly referencing which characters are better than others and in basically any game where character abilities differ you can rate characters who simply have better movesets over characters who have more limited abilities. Rankings always assume player skill is equal, and therefore it's down to the character's natural abilities themselves. The characters in Streets of Rage clearly all play differently from one another, and to anyone who says this isn't true and that player skill is the only factor, please then tell me why you think that Roo is just as good of a character in SoR3 as Blaze or Axel are, because this is what you're arguing (protip: he's not, he's bottom tier by a wide margin over everyone else due to universally poor specials, no throw, weak attacks, bad jump attacks, etc).

The only games where tiers don't necessarily work are RPGs or multiplayer teamwork based games where different classes have extreme specialization and are designed to fit into and perform specific jobs. You can't really rate individual classes as easily in games where they're expected to synergize with one another. Basically, games that are not meant to be played solo.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:46 am

@DarkThief
Good point for Elle, she just rely on a lot of advanced technics such as turning back during combo to deal extra damage and such. I definitly think she's good (B is her minus rank, maybe more, like A) but as I don't play her, and as she is really difficult to play, I didn't put her in the tiers list.

Regarding your comment about Blaze3. Reach on her jab is decent, but yep, it's not that great. She has a good Blitz2 and mastering it is a key to balance range (good damage, reach and crowd control).

Regarding damage she's weak like every sor3 character, but is it a real chore to kill people with her ? That's my point, she deals enough damage to me (just opinion there). Regarding off spe, I have to agree that opponent with def special such as Abadede and Shiva don't allow her to use it anymore, but this off special is designed for crowd control on swarm, not for dealing damage. Blaze2 has a good off special for bosses, while Blaze3 has definitly better crowd control. Blaze2 has a big punch (off special, combo) but lack crowd control (relatively speaking, comparing to only Blaze3).

So I agree totally with you, but I still don't see how that make Blaze3 weak. Use def special against abadede and Shiva. You lose damage but you are still safe (so not a con).

@Serp
All you said about Axel 2 is true. He has great damage on risky action. Blitz 46, off special 74, combo 44. Is hold B has precedence, so his jump in attack (down+B while jumping). The problem with Axel2 is when you have to play safely. Def special is 16, don't last long (few I-frames compare to many character), lack of reach on his jab and blitz. His blitz has precedence on the first hit, but still very unsafe (recovery long).His combo is a 5 hitter (long to perform so not very safe) and his off special is so long that is ask the player a peculiar setup to use it (compare to Adam or Max or Blaze 2 or almost everyone in the game !).

Axel2 blitz2* is just an excellent move (good damage 40; safe; fast); but Axel1 is still safer on his off special and has better damage on blitz2 (52 damage, safe, fast).

You say that jump kick is not an important cluster but when you will notice that you need to run jump to counter some Attack like Jet ou Zamza to deal a pitiful 8 damage jump kick, you definitly beleive thtat Blaze3 feel like gold with her jump kick. Wink Try some mod with Jet and Zamza clever combat and you will see what I mean about the importance of jump cluster (aside from plateforming).

@DonVecta :
Nothing to add, I understand your tiers list.

@BareknuckleRoo and Mr.Din
I think I agree with Mr.Din (philosophy of tiers list is more for versus game, including MMORPG) but I can't deny Bareknuckeroo point (why not try to rank character on their overall effectiveness).

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:47 am

bareknuckleroo wrote:You don't believe some characters can be better than others and rated as such, except for the characters who are better than others. That's... not logically consistent. It's simply a reality that not all characters in games are balanced to be equally powerful, and some characters exist specifically to be more challenging than others. Sure, players can be successful with bad characters as well as good characters, but that doesn't mean that means there isn't an objective difference in strength between the characters' abilities.
Who the fuck said the characters were equal? I didn't say any of that nonsense. Please learn how to read before shooting your mouth off.

Tiers are simply a way of quickly referencing which characters are better than others and in basically any game where character abilities differ you can rate characters who simply have better movesets over characters who have more limited abilities. Rankings always assume player skill is equal, and therefore it's down to the character's natural abilities themselves. The characters in Streets of Rage clearly all play differently from one another, and to anyone who says this isn't true and that player skill is the only factor, please then tell me why you think that Roo is just as good of a character in SoR3 as Blaze or Axel are, because this is what you're arguing (protip: he's not, he's bottom tier by a wide margin over everyone else due to universally poor specials, no throw, weak attacks, bad jump attacks, etc).
Player interaction is a HUGE factor here, Roo being widely less useful than the other players is something obvious but you tell me for example how the hell Zan is C Tier (just going by serps post) but SoR3 Skate with horrid range and damage output is B Tier? Has anyone here extensively played Zan? I don't see many videos with him but I sure as hell use him a ton better than skate3. I'm not even the only one to point out that you CAN'T get a solid list, it literally depends on who's playing.

The only games where tiers don't necessarily work are RPGs or multiplayer teamwork based games where different classes have extreme specialization and are designed to fit into and perform specific jobs. You can't really rate individual classes as easily in games where they're expected to synergize with one another. Basically, games that are not meant to be played solo.
This isn't a damn fighting game where the main characters square off with each other. THAT'S what tiers are usually used for, who fights who better. Sure you can get a general idea how a character will last based on a couple of things but again, depends on the person. Far too muddy to say this character is better than that character. Too many variables to take note of.

Oh did I mention the fact that the multiple changes that can be made to the gameplay? Are you going to incorporate who's better with SoR3 hit stun versus SoR2 hit stun versus remake hit stun etc etc etc? What about cop call versus boss character specials? If it's that damn serious let's match up each character to each enemy too while we're at it.

I'll give you a perfect example, use elle with SoR2 hitstun and tell me she's as useful as elle with SoR3 stun. Now you have to separate Elle into two different tiers.

TL;DR Calm the fuck down, it's a beat em up, enjoy whatever character you want to use, get good with them and kick ass. This isn't a fighting game where characters pit their moves against one another competitively smh.

@BigDarsh I think the only use this would really have is if we're talking about speed running, that's the only time I've seen tiers useful as far as beat em ups go. With effectiveness we can theoretically say certain characters are heavily more effective than others but to say for example that Adam is better than Axel2 or Elle is worse than Blaze1 is totally subjective and dependent on who's using these characters. Yes they play differently but it's really HOW you use them that matters. Some would find Max to be a challenge to use because he's slow and has quite a bit of start up on his attacks but I think we've seen what Max is REALLY capable of LOL.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sat Aug 08, 2015 11:55 am

Mr.Din wrote:I think the only use this would really have is if we're talking about speed running, that's the only time I've seen tiers useful as far as beat em ups go.

Because speed running is the only common challenge. You can do a different tiers list for one life credit, or no pick up, or no weapon, or even run desactivate (Max takes a dive here ^^).

As you said, everything is subjective.

With effectiveness we can theoretically say certain characters are heavily more effective than others but to say for example that Adam is better than Axel2 or Elle is worse than Blaze1 is totally subjective and dependent on who's using these characters.
Yes they play differently but it's really HOW you use them that matters.

Trust me or not, I'm in charge of fighting game community, and I participate to organisation of tournament. Some people might use some characters better than others and tiers list is designed to negate that subjectivity. In exemple, Viper in UMvC3 is a goddess, but only people like Marlinpie can master her. She is way too hard to play compare to, let's say, Verigl.

So when you do a tiers list, you just don't care about "how", (even though you and I care about "how"). Tiers list is "if chuck norris play every characters at the perfection (since he's chuck norris) who is the better ?".

But Chuck Norris does'nt exist, and so the tiers list.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  CajNatalie on Sat Aug 08, 2015 12:03 pm

Darsh is right. If there's going to be a tierlist it needs to somehow be separated from the subjective experiences and individual abilities of the players behind the characters. But with the community as small as it is now it's just not likely as possible to collect enough data from everyone to filter away the subjectivity to make a good tier list anymore.

Only thing everyone will ever agree on is that the Shivas are broken, but beyond that good luck. XD
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  serp on Sat Aug 08, 2015 2:54 pm

Tier lists are always subjective and are generally reactionary to tournament results.

As I posted before, and as others posted too, our community just isn't large enough to get enough input and opinions, and as others point out we can't compete either.

You can have subjective tier lists and then with enough of them see patterns that emerge. You can maybe sort of get a full tier list that way, but the problem is also difference in skill.

Sometimes difficulty of character can impact tiers lists, but SORR is too simple a game for that to really be the case.

With SORR for tiers you're looking at survivability, speed, matchups against enemy characters and AIs. All the characters can beat an individual enemy, so the key then becomes how they handle bosses as well as screens flooded with enemies. You basically want to be able to do runs with minimal life lost and not bump against the timer.

Of course settings also matter. I use SOR2 combo and pause delay iirc. I don't think I use SOR3 exceptions and diagonal running, but maybe I do. I'd have to check back. I know I like my settings though for me personally, I have the most fun with them. A lot of that is probably because SOR2 was my favorite of the series and I had played it the most (although I played all of them like crazy, I used to play with an online friend almost every night until one day he just disappeared haha).
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  bareknuckleroo on Sat Aug 08, 2015 7:38 pm

Mr.Din wrote:Who the fuck said the characters were equal? I didn't say any of that nonsense. Please learn how to read before shooting your mouth off.

TL;DR Calm the fuck down, it's a beat em up

Not sure what necessitated the hostile tone of your response, but please feel free to take your own advice.

Whether it's referred to as a tier list, a discussion of which characters are the best and worst in the game, who's better at beating the game, or whatever you wish to call it really, in any game where characters play differently from one another it is possible to have a discussion of relative strengths and weaknesses between characters. This is a good thing, particularly in the interests of game balance and design, or simply when discussing strategies for using characters. The large number of options the game provides isn't a serious issue, as any list made can easily take this into account by considering all characters under the same 'set' of options.

There's a number of games out there where characters generally regarded as 'weaker' have jumped up enormously in the eyes of players after discovering there are strategies to be used with them that allow them to do very powerful things. For a direct example in SoRR, look at Zan: early in SoRR's life there wasn't much attention paid to him and he was generally regarded as a bad character, when nowadays there's more recognition that he's actually pretty decent thanks to two amazing blitzes that can move diagonally, in addition to his insane reach, priority and speed (0-star blitz chaining).

For examples of other non fighting games where characters can be objectively assessed and rated better than one another, see:

Spoiler:
Castle Crashers, a beat 'em up with fairly simple mechanics, characters only really differ between each other in their magical ability, with certain ones being clearly more powerful than others (Red Knight, Blue Knight, Sawblades) and some being clearly iffier (Iceskimo being worse in every single measurable way than Blue Knight).

Risk of Rain, a roguelike platforming game with characters who play vastly different from one another. There's a couple characters who have undeniably poor abilities, generally related to lack of mobility (Enforcer and HAN-D are widely regarded as awful for good reason).

I'll give you a perfect example, use elle with SoR2 hitstun and tell me she's as useful as elle with SoR3 stun. Now you have to separate Elle into two different tiers.

Anyone played in SoR2 Pause Delay is going to be worse relative to if they were played in SoR3 Pause Delay. A better example would have been a list made with Combined Pause Delay, where some characters are noticeably slower than others, but most people wisely play with either SoR3 Pause Delay or Remake Pause Delay, due to how SoR2/Combined makes certain characters like Rudra or the SoR2 cast feel much less useful, particularly on the higher difficulty modes which really were designed for SoR3 Pause Delay speed (or at least Remake speed). SoR2 Pause Delay on Mania is simply masochism; jump kick a group of enemies, and the added delay keeps you in the air so long that another enemy often has time to move behind you and punch you out of the air.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Sat Aug 08, 2015 9:23 pm

bareknuckleroo wrote:Not sure what necessitated the hostile tone of your response, but please feel free to take your own advice.
I'm not the one putting words in other people's mouth. Not once did I make the absurd assumption that the game was balanced. I just don't think Tier's are necessary when many variables in the game can change their effectiveness, INCLUDING who's playing the game but I'll try not to come off as hostile.

Whether it's referred to as a tier list, a discussion of which characters are the best and worst in the game, who's better at beating the game, or whatever you wish to call it really, in any game where characters play differently from one another it is possible to have a discussion of relative strengths and weaknesses between characters. This is a good thing, particularly in the interests of game balance and design, or simply when discussing strategies for using characters. The large number of options the game provides isn't a serious issue, as any list made can easily take this into account by considering all characters under the same 'set' of options.
cool but as I said those same set of options can boost one character and totally fuck the other character over. So you have to take into account that character may not be bad or good simply based on how they play, which is why I brought up elle.

There's a number of games out there where characters generally regarded as 'weaker' have jumped up enormously in the eyes of players after discovering there are strategies to be used with them that allow them to do very powerful things. For a direct example in SoRR, look at Zan: early in SoRR's life there wasn't much attention paid to him and he was generally regarded as a bad character, when nowadays there's more recognition that he's actually pretty decent thanks to two amazing blitzes that can move diagonally, in addition to his insane reach, priority and speed (0-star blitz chaining).
Which is my point... unless a character is BLATANTLY tricky/bad/difficult/awesome/overpowered etc placing them on a who is better than who scale isn't that easy when one player can possibly destroy the game with them. I just don't see a point of a tier list as opposed to just discussing strategies and how to PROPERLY use these characters.

For examples of other non fighting games where characters can be objectively assessed and rated better than one another, see:

Spoiler:
Castle Crashers, a beat 'em up with fairly simple mechanics, characters only really differ between each other in their magical ability, with certain ones being clearly more powerful than others (Red Knight, Blue Knight, Sawblades) and some being clearly iffier (Iceskimo being worse in every single measurable way than Blue Knight).
Removed the second game since I don't know what that is. I don't find this to be that great of an example for your point because now you're talking about ONE ability as opposed to the whole moveset itself. Now it's basically who's better IF you want to use that ability as your primary form of attack.

Anyone played in SoR2 Pause Delay is going to be worse relative to if they were played in SoR3 Pause Delay. A better example would have been a list made with Combined Pause Delay, where some characters are noticeably slower than others, but most people wisely play with either SoR3 Pause Delay or Remake Pause Delay, due to how SoR2/Combined makes certain characters like Rudra or the SoR2 cast feel much less useful, particularly on the higher difficulty modes which really were designed for SoR3 Pause Delay speed.
I guess you don't use max or shiva? I use SoR3 for elle, rudra, all SoR3 characters etc because they need that speed. Max however I need every hit to connect so I use SoR2 pause for that, though he can also effectively use SoR3 pause delay sometimes a few hits in his attacks will miss because the delay is too fast, not good if I need to destroy an enemy with a big lifebar in a combo or two. I haven't really dived into remake pause so I can't say who benefits but again reinstating my point, just this ONE option can knock a player down in being effective or boost them depending.

Hell I thought Elle was garbage until I changed the pause delay, Max is notably (for me) not as good when the star system is set to the SoR3 setting instead of X because now I can't use the slide at my convenience when I upgrade, which as you may know his slide is the most effective of getting him in where he needs to be.

Also take in consideration some characters have preset rules, SoR3 characters can't use their offensive special during grab no matter what setting you have unless that was patched in 5.1.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Aug 09, 2015 4:44 am

Let's try to cool things down because I think there is some kind of "deaf dialogue" here, and it is sad since I'm pretty sure we are all on the same frequency.

The 3 most important things that has been said IMHO.

CajNatalie wrote:If there's going to be a tierlist it needs to somehow be separated from the subjective experiences and individual abilities of the players behind the characters. But with the community as small as it is now it's just not likely as possible to collect enough data from everyone to filter away the subjectivity to make a good tier list anymore.

Only thing everyone will ever agree on is that the Shivas are broken, but beyond that good luck. XD

We can already established that we can't do a final Tiers list. Period.
But intellectualy speaking, does it forbid us to try to establish one for the sake of discussion. Sure we will never make that tiers list, but as I don't care about Tiers list (the destination), it's okay with me (the travel).

serp wrote:With SORR for tiers you're looking at survivability, speed, matchups against enemy characters and AIs. All the characters can beat an individual enemy, so the key then becomes how they handle bosses as well as screens flooded with enemies. You basically want to be able to do runs with minimal life lost and not bump against the timer.
Very good point, this over simplification is really clever when you think about it.

Mr.Din wrote:Which is my point... unless a character is BLATANTLY tricky/bad/difficult/awesome/overpowered etc placing them on a who is better than who scale isn't that easy when one player can possibly destroy the game with them. I just don't see a point of a tier list as opposed to just discussing strategies and how to PROPERLY use these characters.

I think you have a problem with tiers whores more than tiers list. There is no point of making tiers list in any game, aside from cultural enlightnment. Tiers Whores are people who think tiers list is concretely useful. For example, a tiers whore will pick a high tiers character just because he is high tiers. The tiers whore has no clue of the game plan, he copy pasta game phases without understanding the true meaning of his action.

It is a sheep in a world of sheep. A no brainer in a world of zombie. Someone who don't like fighting games, who don't like martial arts, and don't even understand the very concept of Street Fighter II.

In GGXX Reload, Chip Zanuff is the bottom tiers and Eddie is the top tiers (almost god...). In France, during the whole time GGXX R was played competitively, Joe Higashi always fought Cuongster in the grand finale of every fucking damn tournament. A Chip Zanuff player vs Eddie player. How it is possible since the tiers list stated that chip is low tiers ?

It is possible because Joe Higashi pick the character that fits his playstyle, and try to master it, and because Cuongster pick the character that fits his playstyle, and try to master it.

This is what fighitng game is. Martial Philosophy.
Pick your cyborg and fuck the tiers list (and rape every fucking damn tiers whores in your path! farao  ).

Tiers list is still something usefull for cultural enlightment.

So Mr.Din, what is your problem with tiers lists?
I think you have a problem with tiers whores (like me). Smile

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sun Aug 09, 2015 7:40 am

Tier whores are basically found in versus games in order to win matches, torneys, money matches and overall power in the FGC. In beat 'em ups I don't think it's really a big deal. Granted, several players upload tons of walkthroughs with Shiva or Max, but since these games are not exactly competitive, shouldn't be much of a problem.

Mind you, I'm a Max player myself. Do I use him cuz it's easy to beat the game with him? Because he's top tier? Nah, honestly, I use him because I'm having fun with him and cuz I love to use him to the max (yeah, pun intended Razz ), but there's mid to low tier characters I also play and enjoy...like Zan or Blaze 1.

Bottomline, tier discussion here is mostly to learn about them characters rather than making them a pick for competitive reasons. There's competition alright, in breaking survival challenges... but they're broke down per character so not even that could be a bother.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Sun Aug 09, 2015 9:49 am

BigDarsh wrote:I think you have a problem with tiers whores more than tiers list. There is no point of making tiers list in any game, aside from cultural enlightnment. Tiers Whores are people who think tiers list is concretely useful. For example, a tiers whore will pick a high tiers character just because he is high tiers. The tiers whore has no clue of the game plan, he copy pasta game phases without understanding the true meaning of his action.

It is a sheep in a world of sheep. A no brainer in a world of zombie. Someone who don't like fighting games, who don't like martial arts, and don't even understand the very concept of Street Fighter II.

In GGXX Reload, Chip Zanuff is the bottom tiers and Eddie is the top tiers (almost god...). In France, during the whole time GGXX R was played competitively, Joe Higashi always fought Cuongster in the grand finale of every fucking damn tournament. A Chip Zanuff player vs Eddie player. How it is possible since the tiers list stated that chip is low tiers ?

It is possible because Joe Higashi pick the character that fits his playstyle, and try to master it, and because Cuongster pick the character that fits his playstyle, and try to master it.

This is what fighitng game is. Martial Philosophy.
Pick your cyborg and fuck the tiers list (and rape every fucking damn tiers whores in your path! farao  ).

Tiers list is still something usefull for cultural enlightment.

So Mr.Din, what is your problem with tiers lists?
I think you have a problem with tiers whores (like me). Smile
Eh I don't really care what other people do but as far as everything else you said that pretty much sums up how I feel about tiers, they're practically pointless. At least in fighting games you get a general idea of good/bad match ups from a tier list, beat 'em ups aren't in the same light to me.

I'm good with elle, doesn't mean she's the best in the game it simply means I know how to utilize her in situations the game presents. The game AI isn't a human being, when I figure out the kickboxer's weakness that's the end of the story from there I figure out how to exploit that with whatever character I'm using. To be frank I couldn't use Axel to save my life but I'm not going to rank the guy bottom tier because of that.

But that's just my opinion. If we're all in acknowledgement that there is no concrete tier list I guess I'm cool with it but I'd rather see discussion about how to use the character than about who's more effective because from what I've seen in the right hands majority of the characters are effective. BKRoo's Victy videos are amazing to me. I couldn't care less if victy is bottom tier, it's not like I'd steer away because he's more challenging to use.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Aug 09, 2015 3:17 pm

I think I understand what ticked you off in the first place, it is the fact that we will discuss tiers list instead of speaking general strategy. If this is what bother you, let's make another topic "tiers list discussion". In the fighting game forum, there are thread dedicate for tiers list debate and thread dedicate to strategy debate.

Don Vecta and myself tried to explain that tiers list is not a tool in itself (match up chart a bit much but still theorical), tiers list discussion is just another angle to look at a game and light up some spots that remain in the dark if you only look at the game from a pure strategy angle.

Example : knowing how to defeat Eagle with Axel2 and knowin how to defeat Eagle with Shiva 2. That's character strategy. This is what you care about and this is what we all care about since we all love SoRR.

Example : Benny26 SoR at the movies is maybe the most experimental mods around here. It's not the best mod to me, but it is so crazy that it permit to light up some stuff and his very enjoyable for that reason. When you are in the canyon, the Z axis is so thin in some part that using Axel 2 blitz 2* = pit yourself because Axel 2 strafe low during that move.

That's a con, and a huge one since it is his best move if you refered to Axel2 character strategy thread. He goes down on the tiers list. Not because I don't manage to pass this zone, but because this zone reduces my options, while all the others character I play don't have this affordance (they never strafe low when performing their moves). Axel 1/3 have the same problem.

That's what is tiers list. Fact not opinion.

I can go on and speak about the gang bang base ball scene with pit and Galsia 1. That's another fight that show you some stuff, about who is better than who. I can even go in the plateforming phase of Secret of Shadow Dancer to see how Max feels here.

As say CajNatalie, Shiva is just a god in all those peculiar battle, but we all know that but tiers list discussion permit to establish that. Wink

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Mon Aug 10, 2015 1:04 am

Well I wasn't ticked off to begin with. I just got annoyed when BKRoo took my opinion and made the assumption that I suddenly feel the game is balanced when that's not even remotely what I was saying. I was simply giving my opinion on the matter, it's nothing to stop or split the thread over really.

I see what you're getting at with the 2nd example, not sure if I agree that a situation like that would drop him down a tier. I mean honestly that's a mod, I could make a mod that screws over any of the characters if I wanted to so in my humble opinion if tiers are to be based on the facts it's probably better to stick to more reasonable situations. Rudra actually falls off the elevator on the SoR1 path if you use her izuna drop too close to the edge, it's infuriating and hilarious at the same time.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Mon Aug 10, 2015 3:51 am

Glad that we understand each other
Mr.Din wrote:I see what you're getting at with the 2nd example, not sure if I agree that a situation like that would drop him down a tier. I mean honestly that's a mod, I could make a mod that screws over any of the characters if I wanted to so in my humble opinion if tiers are to be based on the facts it's probably better to stick to more reasonable situations.

Stick with more reasonable situation ? Shocked

The way I see the thing, tiers list are not based on more reasonable situation since tiers list is not "general strategy thread".

Zangief vs Dalhsim, that's is not a reasonable situation. That's Zangief nightmare in SSFIIX.
Zangief vs Sagat, that's not a reasonable situation in SSF4.

The tiers list use every fucking damn crazy situation to be established. That's why tiers whore exist. They exist because they think a tiers list is based on "overall general situation". Tiers list is just a comparaison or who is better than who in every fucking damn crazy situation the game can present. Match up chart.

In 2D fighting game; the arena don't change, only the player (Intelligence) and the character (moveset) change the situation.
In BTU, the IA don't change (Eagle is eagle) but the arena and the character (moveset change situation).

If you want to make a clever tiers list discussion, you have to look at all peculiar situation that the game offers. Now you can say that mod is not the real game, but this community exist ONLY because mod exist, and so they are the real game at this time.

On a sidenote, CajNatalie has made a fucking crazy troll mod which featue the SkullFuck road. It is a mod design to laugh at people who don't understand how to make a good battle design in BTU. She don't laugh at experimental mod such as brillant Benny26; she laugh at people that do random battle design. She create the most non sensical battle possible and this mod rely on "polcie button".

And just guess which character defeat the skullfuck without using police and post it on the old forum?
Clue: it's start "Sh" and it finish with "va".

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:08 am

BigDarsh wrote:Glad that we understand each other
Mr.Din wrote:I see what you're getting at with the 2nd example, not sure if I agree that a situation like that would drop him down a tier. I mean honestly that's a mod, I could make a mod that screws over any of the characters if I wanted to so in my humble opinion if tiers are to be based on the facts it's probably better to stick to more reasonable situations.

Stick with more reasonable situation ? Shocked

The way I see the thing, tiers list are not based on more reasonable situation since tiers list is not "general strategy thread".

Zangief vs Dalhsim, that's is not a reasonable situation. That's Zangief nightmare in SSFIIX.
Zangief vs Sagat, that's not a reasonable situation in SSF4.

The tiers list use every fucking damn crazy situation to be established. That's why tiers whore exist. They exist because they think a tiers list is based on "overall general situation". Tiers list is just a comparaison or who is better than who in every fucking damn crazy situation the game can present. Match up chart.

In 2D fighting game; the arena don't change, only the player (Intelligence) and the character (moveset) change the situation.
In BTU, the IA don't change (Eagle is eagle) but the arena and the character (moveset change situation).

If you want to make a clever tiers list discussion, you have to look at all peculiar situation that the game offers. Now you can say that mod is not the real game, but this community exist ONLY because mod exist, and so they are the real game at this time.

On a sidenote, CajNatalie has made a fucking crazy troll mod which featue the SkullFuck road. It is a mod design to laugh at people who don't understand how to make a good battle design in BTU. She don't laugh at experimental mod such as brillant Benny26; she laugh at people that do random battle design. She create the most non sensical battle possible and this mod rely on "polcie button".

And just guess which character defeat the skullfuck without using police and post it on the old forum?
Clue: it's start "Sh" and it finish with "va".
Mods are situational, an area so thin that Axel can't perform his blitz attack is obviously something that wasn't properly thought through, to me that's a terrible reason to knock axel down a tier. The problem with mods is that not everyone play tests to ensure every character can make it through properly.

Example? Mister X Neo's laser boss, he actually took the time to play test every character to make sure they have a method to defeat that boss. Skate was the one who did the worst but it was because of something we already know, his short range. This wasn't a result of improper modding but rather the actual shortcoming of a character, the boss was made SPECIFICALLY to challenge characters range. On the other hand that area being so thin that Axel's blitz would result in a death is an oversight.

What I mean by a reasonable situation is something that can't be labelled as an oversight or purposely done wrong, like caj's mod you mentioned.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Mon Aug 10, 2015 7:37 am

Now we talk, it's very pleasant !

So in your opinion, making a narrow bridge is a bad design ? Because this is what we are talking about. To me the three Axel are bad fighter on narrow bridge. Now if you said that narrow bridge is a "bad thought situation", I will go with stop puting plateforming in mod, not because it tone down Axel in the tiers list (even though it does) but Because SoR jump mechanics was never designed to feature plateform. Neither SoR one, two or three.

But modders still do it without carring about that, and I will not say to the modders "that is bad design, patch nerf buff" anymore.  I adapt because that's how video game evolute. I'm pretty sure narrow bridge will come back one day or another, as plateforming did.


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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Mon Aug 10, 2015 8:32 am

BigDarsh wrote:Now we talk, it's very pleasant !

So in your opinion, making a narrow bridge is a bad design ? Because this is what we are talking about. To me the three Axel are bad fighter on narrow bridge. Now if you said that narrow bridge is a "bad thought situation", I will go with stop puting plateforming in mod, not because it tone down Axel in the tiers list (even though it does) but Because SoR jump mechanics was never designed to feature plateform. Neither SoR one, two or three.

But modders still do it without carring about that, and I will not say to the modders "that is bad design, patch nerf buff" anymore.  I adapt because that's how video game evolute. I'm pretty sure narrow bridge will come back one day or another, as plateforming did.

A narrow bridge isn't necessarily bad, it depends on the situation. A narrow bridge that you fight on I would personally recommend it being big enough for all characters to properly do their moves. This wouldn't take away from the bridge being dangerous as rolling or moving up and down too much will still result in a life taken, the point of a narrow bridge is to limit mobility not your move set. The SoR1 bridge does this in an acceptable fashion, Axel can still do his blitz just more carefully but yeah if it's so thin it limits a character from doing a standard move, to me that's not good design. Which is why platforming is likely not going to be a factor in the tier list either I would guess, SOME characters can make those jumps but if the platforms aren't spaced properly where all characters can make the jump (even if barely) it's not a good design, it limits the player in an unnecessary fashion.

Though what you said at the end there is part of the reason tiers probably shouldn't be effected by mods, all of it is subjective. If I think something is bad design someone else might not and won't likely fix that, we don't know the modder's full intention where as the main game was made the way it was.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  serp on Mon Aug 10, 2015 5:04 pm

I'm sorry but it's absolutely ridiculous to use mods for a tier list.

Mods change the game so that it isn't even the same experience anymore.

It would be like insisting on one same tier list for the entire SF series instead of going game by game, as it is actually done.

If you want to make a separate tier list for a mod, by all means you can do so. But it does not belong in any general thread or when discussing a tier list for SORR.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Mon Aug 10, 2015 9:40 pm

serp wrote:I'm sorry but it's absolutely ridiculous to use mods for a tier list.

Mods change the game so that it isn't even the same experience anymore.

It would be like insisting on one same tier list for the entire SF series instead of going game by game, as it is actually done.

If you want to make a separate tier list for a mod, by all means you can do so. But it does not belong in any general thread or when discussing a tier list for SORR.
You've summed it up much better than I could.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  CajNatalie on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:31 pm

I made different layouts with Vecta to create hazardous situations, limiting not only movement, but freedom of the use of movesets. No it's not just 'less movespace', and it never was.
You can't go spamming Adam's roundhouse Blitz freely in part of Stage 4 of his mod, as the biggest example.

Mods have been a huge and even centric part of Remake since the beginning. It's silly to cut them out altogether. Yeah there are bad mods, and they can be treated as such and therefore issues presented by them can be weighted differently compared with other mods, so they have minimal impact on tier placement as possible.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  DarkThief on Mon Aug 10, 2015 10:36 pm

serp wrote:I'm sorry but it's absolutely ridiculous to use mods for a tier list.

Mods change the game so that it isn't even the same experience anymore.

If anything, it'd be better to include "strong/weak vs. <insert boss here>" for each character, as that has a far greater impact on user mods. (given how the bosses tend to be used in more creative and destructive ways, together with some being absent altogether)

The only extreme case of a mod being totally unfair to any particular character (to the point of impossibility) is the shooting gallery in Warriors of Fate and the new H.U.N.T.E.R episode...the former provides a shortcut for Roo, the latter hasn't yet.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Tue Aug 11, 2015 1:14 am

DarkThief wrote:
serp wrote:I'm sorry but it's absolutely ridiculous to use mods for a tier list.

Mods change the game so that it isn't even the same experience anymore.

If anything, it'd be better to include "strong/weak vs. <insert boss here>" for each character, as that has a far greater impact on user mods. (given how the bosses tend to be used in more creative and destructive ways, together with some being absent altogether)

The only extreme case of a mod being totally unfair to any particular character (to the point of impossibility) is the shooting gallery in Warriors of Fate and the new H.U.N.T.E.R episode...the former provides a shortcut for Roo, the latter hasn't yet.

Which reminds me I should do something about it... Razz

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Tue Aug 11, 2015 3:07 am

CajNatalie wrote:I made different layouts with Vecta to create hazardous situations, limiting not only movement, but freedom of the use of movesets. No it's not just 'less movespace', and it never was.
You can't go spamming Adam's roundhouse Blitz freely in part of Stage 4 of his mod, as the biggest example
Eh I'll agree to disagree on that, Limiting movesets is just artificial difficulty to me. What I like about that bridge on the rooftop battle in Adam's story is that it challenged the player by forcing them to deal with Hakuyo's in a narrow space where they can't maneuver around them. Preventing spamming and preventing a move all together are two totally different things.

CajNatalie wrote:Mods have been a huge and even centric part of Remake since the beginning. It's silly to cut them out altogether. Yeah there are bad mods, and they can be treated as such and therefore issues presented by them can be weighted differently compared with other mods, so they have minimal impact on tier placement as possible.
I can see this working out okay I guess but not everyone is going to accept their mod as being bad.

I guess I'm rambling on too much, this isn't really that serious.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Aug 11, 2015 6:25 am

Let's face some stuff. Serp says that making a tiers list including mods is like making tiers list including all SF4 series.

I'm sorry dude but I can't agree on that.

We can do a tiers list for SoRRv5.0 and his SoRMaker (all the mods designed for v5.0)
We can do a tiers list for SoRRv5.0a and his SoRMaker (all the mods designed for v5.0a)
We can do a tier slist for SoRRv5.1 and his SoRMaker (all the mods designed for v5.1)

If Charco get back into the game, it's not because of v5.1; but because modders updated their mods for v5.1 (Path of Shadow Dancer, CM Blast CPS tribute, Vecta's Hunter)
If I am here speaking with you, it's not because of v5.1; but because I'm currently playing Hunter and working with CM Blast on modding. If we are all here, it is not because of v5.1, but because of the possibilities that offer his SoRMaker.

Look at all the people complaining at the limitations of SoRMaker, even though each upgrade give us more options to make mods, people still say "I wanna make my own IA, my own sprite, my own hitbox".

SoRMaker is limited, face it, and Tiers List can take those limitations as a basis (life saver).

I mean, I don't play at Open BoR (few exception) because their is no limitation to focus the modders. He can do what he want (that's not SoRMaker), and every open bor is a whole different game.

SoRMaker v5.1 mods are the metagame of SoRR. People who deny that just don't want to face the social reality of the game.

What say CajNatalie about mod designing is why I play SoRR, and not open BoR. This is why I care about making general strategy thread, character thread, and tiers list thread on SoRR, and not on OpenBoR.

Limitations of SoRMaker is what make SoRR shines to me and permit to have a consistant game that has a lot of focus points on both playing the mod and making the mod.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  serp on Tue Aug 11, 2015 7:02 pm

It is patently absurd to claim changes to the game conditions don't change a tier list.

Might as well tier SFII Rainbow Edition with WW. Why not? It's just a mod right?

Heck you don't even need mods to invalidate a tier list. Tier lists change entirely for patches. People complained about MKX patches completely changing tier lists, but we're supposed to count mods, which are worse than patches, and have that somehow make a "correct" tier list for the entire game release?

As I said before, if you want to make a specific tier list for a mod, have at it. Not that anyone really even cares about tiering even in here, but we are going way off the rails at this point.

And if you don't actually enjoy the gameplay enough to play the game, that is on you. People are still playing ST and KOF98 all these years later, they don't need mods to play it. Most people aren't even playing these SORR mods, heck barely anyone even plays the game period. There is no online play feature either. There is no "social" feature to this game. Go play farmville or something if that's what you're looking for.
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