General Character Discussion

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General Character Discussion

Post  bareknuckleroo on Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:52 am

A catch-all thread for discussion when you're comparing characters to one another, or the topic relates to the characters but doesn't really fit in that character's specific discussion thread. Basically, a continuation of this thread: http://www.bombergames.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2400

What the heck is up with the character stats? I never understood what the 'Stamina' stat is supposed to be - all the characters seem to have the same health, after all. Same goes for 'Technique', is that supposed to be how much priority their moves have, how good their blitzes/specials are...? I would have preferred to see them use something a bit more meaningful like 'Range' instead... but then some of the characters have absurd stat ratings so it makes them look kinda moot:

* Roo's Jump is at 5?! His jumping attacks are weak, he pulls in his jump kick... honestly the only people with worse jump kicks are SoR1 Axel and Zan. Not sure what's up with a 5 in speed either, his attacks aren't particularly fast, though his running speed is pretty good.

* Zan gets a 4 in Power? His attack strength is pretty awful, it's his long range and speed that shine!

* Why is Rudra only 3 stars in Speed/Jump? She's at least 4 if not 5 stars.

* Mr. X may not have much style in using his gun, but I always thought Technique was supposed to rate the character's Defensive & Offensive Specials, and with the best Defensive in the game, he ought to get more than 1 star... SoR3 Skate or Roo, now those I can see with a low Technique rating...
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Crash Dummie on Mon Aug 26, 2013 3:31 pm

The stats never made much sense even in the original games. They don't have any correlation to the actual in-game damage/speed/etc. It's like the developpers programmed the characters, didn't really look to hard for the actual results, and said "Eh, let's throw some letters and stars on the select screen".

In SOR1, Axel and Blaze both have an A in their speed stat. Yet Blaze walks faster. Adam and Axel have A's in strength, and while Adam is though to be the stronger of the two, I believe his regular combos won't finish off some mooks, while Axel's does. This could have been resolved by having "A, B and C" instead of just "A and B" for the stats.

In SOR2, Max's jumps are rated 1/3, and true, he doesn't jump very high, but his air attacks are some of the best in the games. It should have been at least a 2/3.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  DarkThief on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:32 am

I actually did a spreadsheet on this ages ago, to get a more detailed and accurate (but still opinionated) picture stats-wise:

http://imgur.com/Oa5uD8W

Combo: damage, speed, reliability and any special features of the main attack.
A specials: damage, range, reliability and crowd control of specials.
B specials: ditto, but for blitzes.
Police: self-explanatory. (fixed values for police/magic/nothing)
Weapons: range, speed and reliability of weapon strikes and specials.
Throws: damage and usefulness of throws/slams etc. plus their effectiveness on certain enemies.
Speed: movement speed. (same as official stats)
Jump: damage, reliability and offensive/defensive usefulness of jumping attacks. (not the same as official stats)
Reach: range of main attack. (should be in Combo really but left separate due to official stats)
Stamina: unknown. (same as official stats)
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Thu Oct 10, 2013 5:54 am

DarkThief wrote:I actually did a spreadsheet on this ages ago, to get a more detailed and accurate (but still opinionated) picture stats-wise:

http://imgur.com/Oa5uD8W

Combo: damage, speed, reliability and any special features of the main attack.
A specials: damage, range, reliability and crowd control of specials.
B specials: ditto, but for blitzes.
Police: self-explanatory. (fixed values for police/magic/nothing)
Weapons: range, speed and reliability of weapon strikes and specials.
Throws: damage and usefulness of throws/slams etc. plus their effectiveness on certain enemies.
Speed: movement speed. (same as official stats)
Jump: damage, reliability and offensive/defensive usefulness of jumping attacks. (not the same as official stats)
Reach: range of main attack. (should be in Combo really but left separate due to official stats)
Stamina: unknown. (same as official stats)
Not bad, it does need some work and some stats are debatable.

For example, Max's combo ability should be at least on 4, granted it's not fast but the reach is decent and the damage is insane, plus every punch (except the finisher) has multiple hit values, from the chop (can hit twice on tall enemies), to the third punch that hits 3 times for nasty damage. Not to mention his ability to chain his rush into blitzes and specials is uncanny, he can combo almost anything!

Skate-2's Special A should be a bit higher, maybe 4, because his corkscrew kick, while not comboable, does nasty damage and enemies don't tend to move away. His throw game is solid and effective, but it's not as killer as Max's, I think rank 4 is appropriate for him.

The values of Police for Ash, Elle and Rudra should be 4, why? because, while they have the ability to use it anytime, the damage it's dramatically reduced in half. They are effective, alright and part of their gameplay, but they're not exactly devastating.

As a Rudra player I think her values are also a bit too much, her combo ability should be 3 or 4, considering her damage it's below average. It does have reach and speed but not damage. Her throw game is effective only with her Izuna Drop in damage, but it's not good for crowd control, horrible point score and sometimes if the enemy is killed on the kick, you'd be open for retaliation (happened many times), her front grab is slow and very very weak and doesn't have huge throw distance to use against other enemies. I'd give it 3. Her jump game is solid and has average damage and reach but not godly as Blaze-3. I'd give it 3 at most. A specials it's debatable, while her chakram move it's good because it lasts for a long while in invincibility frames, her shurikens are not especially good for combos due of its low damage, plus f A it's not good to use as a special escape move. It does have advantages since it's projectile. So yeah, maybe she does deserve the 4. And her speed definitely deserves the 5, come on!


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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Thu Dec 12, 2013 7:18 am

I've been wrecking shit with Elle lately, probably the most unexpected turn out since Skate lol.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Fri Dec 13, 2013 4:43 pm

Mr.Din wrote:I've been wrecking shit with Elle lately, probably the most unexpected turn out since Skate lol.

Me too, I'm going for the platinum Very Happy.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Magnus Blade on Sat Dec 14, 2013 5:15 am

The parameters have always been something that has been grating on me literally forever. Before SorR, I sorta got them even though they were still questionable. I've searched everywhere on the net for the actual SoR definitions of the stats, but to no avail. I thought some GameFaqs guides would cover it, but once I thought about it, anyone writing a guide wouldn't know either if there was no official information on how these stats are shown as correct or what they even mean...and heck, half of the characters having some pretty inaccurate amount of stars in their stats is pretty confusing.

While some of them (some) are a bit self-explanatory, parameters like Technique is a big "what?", as that could mean anything based on the literal definition of it in the dictionary. You'd think with the old game manuals, they'd define these instead of just giving out the stats expecting people to know exactly what they mean. But if I may, allow me to give my own SoR definitions of the parameters...however, I do not claim them to be correct even in the slightest, just that it's my own speculation. I've always wanted to talk to someone about this and even expand on these with corrections/etc if there are any to be made. But anyway, here goes:

--

Power: A rather self-explanatory stat that represents raw damage output. This means that without the assistance of any blitz techniques, jump attacks or specials, this stat is the main influence of damage as far as normal/basic attacks and combos go. The higher the stars, the more damage a character's attacks dish out.

Technique: As technique could mean a number of things, one of the only logical definitions for it in SoR would be the overall efficiency of the character's blitz and special attacks. Having a high technique rating yields an arsenal of attacks that have little to no clear weakness and all attacks would be useful, even if a couple may have flaws. It also represents the range of attacks, basic and special/blitz alike. Characters with a high technique rating handles crowds rather well.

Speed: This stat represents overall movement and attacking speed. Based on the number of stars, the rate at which the character's running and attacking speed is determined. For specials and blitz attacks, this stat plays a major factor in the execution speed of the blitz or special move (both defensive and offensive special). This also could determine how quickly (or effortlessly) they can grab-chain an opponent via a basic combo.

Jump: This represents the character's efficiency in not only attacking while jumping, but their jumping ability as a whole. While it seems like every character jumps at about the same altitude, some of them lag with the jump or are pretty sluggish with it, which also effects their recovery time after landing.

Stamina: Since every character seems to absorb the same amount of damage, the only definition that seems about the most logical for this stat is that it represents how fast the character can recover after an action. This includes blitz and specials as well. Since the literal definition of stamina means, "the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort", one could assume it applies to in-game logic as well. Characters with a high rating in this stat can whip out most of their specials and blitz attacks without fear of leaving themselves open by normal means (unless the player uses said move at a bad time). A perfect defense, you could say.

--

And that'd be it. I've also wanted to re-do the character's stats based on these meanings. For an example: As a Rudra player, I could say her speed rating should definitely match with 5 stars, compared 3. I mean, SoR1 Axel has 3 stars too, but Rudra's movement AND attacking speed bests his. But that depended on if my definitions of the stats were even close to being accurate. As such, I won't bother doing so.

Any feedback is appreciate too.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Sat Dec 14, 2013 10:31 pm

Magnus Blade wrote:
Power: A rather self-explanatory stat that represents raw damage output. This means that without the assistance of any blitz techniques, jump attacks or specials, this stat is the main influence of damage as far as normal/basic attacks and combos go. The higher the stars, the more damage a character's attacks dish out.

Technique: As technique could mean a number of things, one of the only logical definitions for it in SoR would be the overall efficiency of the character's blitz and special attacks. Having a high technique rating yields an arsenal of attacks that have little to no clear weakness and all attacks would be useful, even if a couple may have flaws. It also represents the range of attacks, basic and special/blitz alike. Characters with a high technique rating handles crowds rather well.

Speed: This stat represents overall movement and attacking speed. Based on the number of stars, the rate at which the character's running and attacking speed is determined. For specials and blitz attacks, this stat plays a major factor in the execution speed of the blitz or special move (both defensive and offensive special). This also could determine how quickly (or effortlessly) they can grab-chain an opponent via a basic combo.

Jump: This represents the character's efficiency in not only attacking while jumping, but their jumping ability as a whole. While it seems like every character jumps at about the same altitude, some of them lag with the jump or are pretty sluggish with it, which also effects their recovery time after landing.

Stamina: Since every character seems to absorb the same amount of damage, the only definition that seems about the most logical for this stat is that it represents how fast the character can recover after an action. This includes blitz and specials as well. Since the literal definition of stamina means, "the ability to sustain prolonged physical or mental effort", one could assume it applies to in-game logic as well. Characters with a high rating in this stat can whip out most of their specials and blitz attacks without fear of leaving themselves open by normal means (unless the player uses said move at a bad time). A perfect defense, you could say.

--

And that'd be it. I've also wanted to re-do the character's stats based on these meanings. For an example: As a Rudra player, I could say her speed rating should definitely match with 5 stars, compared 3. I mean, SoR1 Axel has 3 stars too, but Rudra's movement AND attacking speed bests his. But that depended on if my definitions of the stats were even close to being accurate. As such, I won't bother doing so.

I would love the stat ratings to be redone based on the community's findings. Can it be patched?

Power: Yep, pretty much just brute force.

Technique: I would also include grapple actions.

Speed: I feel this should apply to overall speed based on a character's every action. That would give Rudra and Shiva-3 4 stars, all Blazes 3, all Axels 2, in my opinion.

Jump: Agreed.

Stamina: Personally, my big "What" goes here. I feel this stat is merely pointing out a character's conditioning according to the story and has 0 relevance to the actual game. Therefore it's non-sense.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Mon Dec 16, 2013 8:04 pm

I'd go on Power with overall damage of everything: basic rush combo, blitzs, specials, grabs, you name it. Needless to say, Max gets the 5 stars hands down while Zan gets 1 or 2 at best, just as example.

Technique definitely goes to effectiveness of attacks, specials, grabs, weapon usage and whanot. Values of invincibility, safety, execution, combo ability, special techniques with weapons, etc. I'd give Zan a rank of 4 to 5 in technique as his moves are pretty useful most of them (spammable blitz, long reach rush combo, useful grabs, great weapon mastery, etc.) while Roo might suffer a bit in the department (Roo players could discuss and debate me about it).

Speed I agree with all of you. Includes how fast the rush combo can be even in SOR2 or Mixed modes. Displacement, both walk and run. And yes, Rudra goes without saying for a 5 stars rate while Max would get the lowest stat.

Jump goes for the whole air game. Effectiveness of air attacks along with height, reach, damage and usefulness of attacks. Hands down, Blaze-3 would take the cake of best air game ever while Axel-1 and Zan would get a one star stat, in my opinion.

And yeah, I guess for the standards of SORR, Stamina is not really applicable as damage from enemies is pretty standard and nobody absorbs damage whatsoever (now that could have been a good way to implement this feature: the higher the stat, higher the odds to absorb total damage from attacks).

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Mon Dec 16, 2013 10:38 pm

Well, I'd say all Roo has is technique and speed. His tail poke is unstoppable and he has a good throw. Damage from him comes only from blitz 3 and throws. I feel he dishes out a bit more than Zan, overall.

I would only give Rudra 5 stars in speed if grapple actions were discounted. That depends on how you'd answer this question: are grapples purely technique and power?
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Tue Dec 17, 2013 11:08 am

Solinarius wrote:

I would only give Rudra 5 stars in speed if grapple actions were discounted. That depends on how you'd answer this question: are grapples purely technique and power?

I think so... in fact, grab speed would be a flaw rather than a positive trait, considering the amount of invincibility frames a grab grants the opponent.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:30 am

Very nice topic here with a very interesting discussion!

Here is my 2 cents. I'm in fighting games for years and I can tell you something.
Stats used in fighting game is a kind of "fan service" regarding the background of the character and "easy to read tutorial" regarding the gameplay of the character

It's like "the bible" if I can use this comparaison. It is not "a rule of the game", it's more something like a "spirit guide" which help you to make choice.

In our case, to choose your character.

But it is not the reflection of statistic like in "Wrestling Game" or "RPG Game" or Brawler such as "Urban Reign" which are real attribute of your character.

This is true for most fighting game with stats (MK Deception, Dead or Alive 5 in example).

I do think (but i'm not sure) that it is the same for SoR series and Sidescroller beat them up (Capcom D&D exclude which is a mix up of RPG and Side Scroller).
So trying to match them, with real gameplay is a bit "awkward" to me (and I don't want to offend anyone here people, this is just the way I see this stats mess)

On a second point, I found that Dark Thieves Sheet is ok, not perfect but ok, and I'm with Vecta about Rudra, Max and Magic Rating, except for this:
Police is 94/98 and Magic is 64
Magic is about 2/3rd of a life bar (104) usable everywhere (it is very powerfull, more than police to me: it is 5 stars no doubt, and police 4 stars because not usable when needed: last stages of most route and mods lol).

Last, i've made a damage data for this forum and this community, feel free to use, it is very reliable (lots of check), I spent a lot of work to make it so don't be afraid to use it to compare damage.
ie: Blaze 3 jump kick is the best of the game regarding damage (12) and priority: That's definitly 5 stars! ^^

Thank you everyone for this awesome debate.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Mr.Din on Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:27 am

Solinarius wrote:
Mr.Din wrote:I've been wrecking shit with Elle lately, probably the most unexpected turn out since Skate lol.

Me too, I'm going for the platinum Very Happy.

she's much more of a solid character than expected, I'm used to using Max and Adam but I want to expand to other characters, I was thinking I would've done better with blaze before anyone else.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Wed Dec 18, 2013 1:47 am

Well, there's certainly real stats per character made by the programmers of both the original games and the SORR rendition. Characters must have a rate of power, speed, technique and jump at least. Stamina definitely is a moot point.

However, I think there should be other stats that should be considered to discussion and to determine a character: Reach is definitely one of them. In beat 'em ups, reach is a very useful tool that can determine the usage of the character.

Is there any other stats worth adding or discussing?

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:19 am

Don Vecta wrote:Well, there's certainly real stats per character made by the programmers of both the original games and the SORR rendition
True, basics since SFII 1991 (in order to balance the game which is very important in fighing games)

To get back to our topic, reach is one of the most important stats (I'm lookin at you my lovely Axel2 lol).
This guy is heavy damage but very low reach (jab, Y kick, even Blitz and off special lol) and this one of the reason is weaker than Axel 1 which have a better reach (Y Kick for the most obvious example).

If I had to do stats for character I would go with a more "theorical angle".

Axel 2 Stats
Damage Output: good 4/5
Jab 6 / Y 10+14 / Blitz 0* 48 / off special 74 / Jump in attack 12 (knee press)
String combo is 44! (regular value is 32)

Reach:  (ability to land a move): very bad 2/5
jab, Y kick, even Blitz and off special have low range

Safe move: very bad 1/5
long recovery with blitz 0* 1* 3* and off Special
blitz 2* and 3* side step low on Z Axis which make it unsafe on narrow bridge with pit
His string combo is very long (5 hits so very long, and a bit of lag too)
His def special has great range, very fast (safe) but low damage (16)

Air Game: bad 2/5
In place Jump attack is high damage but low reach / Jump Kick is low priority and low damage 8
Jump kick have an ok reach
Hyper Jump Kick is a bit better and have more precedence ( 'run + jump' ) required to defeat Jet!!!
the regular jump kick is not good enough!

Throw Game: bad 2/5
Toss is 24 / Slam is 28 (most character have better damage in both cluster)
Toss have a good recovery, Slam is not terrible (but Axel 3 has the worst of them all)

Weapon Game: Good 4/5
Pipe swing is fast but has lower range than the regular one (horizontal swing)
Katana Slash is fast and he has an invincible special with it (god like without Gauge!)

Mobility: very bad 1/5
His walk/run are decent
His jump is low reach so it is bad for plateforming
He outclass Max but that's all.
The thing is, he do not benefit of any attack to move, compare to anyone in the roster. This is why he has the lowest stat in the mobility cluster.


All in All:
worst character in crowd control of the whole game but a great meat grinder for team play.

What do you think of this people?


Last edited by BigDarsh on Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:20 pm; edited 1 time in total

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:17 am

Looks pretty solid. I could only argue with 4/5 in damage, but that's because I use Grand Upper and Blitz 2 quite a lot. Blitz 2 is great for crowd control.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:24 am

Nice stats and I agree with them, yes. I guess I can make my stats of Max and Rudra as they're the characters I think I've mastered to the top.

Max Thunder stats (by Don Vecta)
Damage Output: astonishing 5/5
Guess besides the monstrous input from his rush combo, he's devastating on his grabs, DAT ATOMIC DROP, DAT CHOKE GRAB, DAT PILEDRIVER, all this blitzes, etc. No matter how you see it, MAX SMASH!

Reach: good 4/5
his chop combo is adequate and can out match Souther's slash attempts. His blitzes have awesome reach, same his offensive special. Defensive special is adequate, but not really special (lol, pun).

Safe move: average 3/5
long recovery with blitz 3*, blitz 2 has something interesting that reacts on AI: it is technically super unsafe if you do it and whiff the grab. Enemies will rush right behind Max BUT they'll never retaliate! I usually go for a fast back attack that has one frame hit. Side step is slow and not many safe to avoid attacks. Long rush string but he has back hit properties on the third attack so some enemy approaching from behind too close will get hit. Offensive special is cool and rushes towards enemies, in looks it could be unsafe after he rolls, but in reality, he still can hit you while rolling so it's rather safe. Choke grab is unsafe if you don't interrupt it with a special, but leaves you open totally.

Air Game: bad 2/5
In place Jump attack is high damage, hits twice but has low reach. Jump Kick has low priority, normal damage but good reach. Jump down attack is okay, good hitbox on landing but has to be meaty while the enemy is standing up to be effective. Even hyper jump has low movement and height. Platforming with him can be troublesome if relying on jumps (for instance, I'd prefer to "jump" with a blitz-2 attack)

Throw Game: awesome 5/5
Besides all the options he has, most his grabs are safe, have adequate invincibility frames (sans Choke grab) and recovers rather fast in some (Air throw, for example). Atomic Drop can input same insane damage on bystanders as in the grabbed victim, easy to hit bystanders around (Choke Grab can "punch" close bystanders who don't have one or two frame attacks, example Big-Ben's jabs or suits jabs).

Weapon Game: Good 4/5
Pipe/Katana/bat swing is godlike, hits from behind in ONE FRAME! Can even outmatch a Galsia-2 or Donnie-2 jab... and that's a lot to talk about.
Special plank/pipe is also godly in damage, 2-hit combo can chunk a huge amount of life, heavily unsafe from behind, enemies with anti-air attacks will smack him.
Knife game is quick, normal.
Katana special it's not so good, swipes and hit the enemies 3 times, but damage input is awful and it's unsafe.

Mobility: Laughable 1/5
His walk is like he has ingrown nails in every toe of his feet.
His jump is low reach so it is bad for platforming.
His run it's mediocre, but still can do run and grabs (if he can then EVERYONE can, though, lol)
The only way he can move fast is by spamming his blitz 0 or 1.

All in All: I'd go that he's a high tier character, not top as Shiva, but from all the default characters he's definitely the best due of the safety of his game, his awesome damage, and his great weapon skills.


Coming up soon: Rudra.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:04 am

Elle
Damage Output: Substantial 3/5
Rush combo has pretty decent numbers, especially if you exploit the rear hits on the 3rd attack. Throw damage is among the highest of the common grapples. Defensive special is the most damaging of all characters.

Reach: Top-Shelf 5/5
You can't get better than this. Whip reach provides absolutely essential utility and allows the AI to be greatly manipulated. The reach on blitz 2 is probably the greatest in the entire roster.

Safe move: Good 4/5
Series is somewhat risky and is bad to end with in a combo due to substantially shorter range and poor recovery (better to use back attack for knockdown). Offensive special is slow to come out and is very prone to sucker punches, plan ahead. Blitz 0 & 1 are prone to counter-attacks, especially if the knockdown hit misses.

Air Game: Great 4/5
In-place jump kick is extremely unsafe around anti-air and is difficult to use. Jump Kick has good priority, damage, reach, and is safer than Blaze's. Stun attack is excellent, pretty much on par with Blaze's.

Throw Game: Mixed-Bag 3/5
Elle's throws are excellent and provide perfect crowd control. However, she has nothing to use against Bongos or safe landers. This hurts Elle's damage and defense against them quite a bit.

Weapon Game: Good 4/5
Blitz with knife seems to be unblockable, does decent damage and hits behind, but still leaves you vulnerable to counters. Normal knife attack is atrocious, however. Katana use is excellent. especially the blitz, but it can be countered by air attacks. Not too bad with weapons. Probably the best knife user if you can get around its flaws and katana/pipe use is notable.

Mobility: Moderate 3/5
With a little zigging and zagging, attacks can be reliably dodged while walking. She runs only a bit slower than Shiva, but still noticeable when you try to catch Jack. Blitz 2 provides notable mobility and affects the AI with a brief "fear".

All in All: The utility in her reach can not be overstated. That, combined with her versatile and useful repertoire, makes her top tier, in my opinion (not quite as good as Skate 2, though).


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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Wed Dec 18, 2013 7:25 am

Solinarius wrote:
Throw Game: Good 4/5
All throws provide excellent crowd control. The throws are brief, but I think it's better this way for Elle.

I'd like to debate on this one, though.
While the speed and throw range is quite top, none of her grabs have slamming properties, thus Elle would have serious issues with Bongo-1/3 in case they're around in a crowd. Not to mention that facing enemies with tech rolling properties (Mona & Lisa, the judos, the Shivas, Roo, Jet-2) also would give her a huge disadvantage since she has to rely in a less damaging grab flurry instead (that probably would cost her invincibility frames and spacing). I guess the lack of a slamming grab that could put fatties and tech rollers in place, I'd give her 3/5.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:24 am

First guys, I'm very glad and impressed you like the model I've made and that you spent time to make your own character stats according to it.

I'm agree with Max's Stats (value/analysis) by Don Vecta.
To me this guy's Damage Output is 6/5 (it's a joke but not this much lol). Great work here.

Looks pretty solid. I could only argue with 4/5 in damage, but that's because I use Grand Upper and Blitz 2 quite a lot. Blitz 2 is great for crowd control.

I might be wrong but maybe you misunderstanding the concept of "Damage Output" which is an abstractted concept, opposite to Damage which is a "real value".

let's clear this out (just in case).

The Damage: Axel 2 has low damage because you need reach to land most of his damaging move, and you need to be safe in order to survive. You will use a lots of move which are safe with reach with him for crowd control such as:
Def Special (low 16 vs 20) Blitz 2 (average 40) Jump Kick (low 8 vs 12)Throw Toss (low 24 vs 32)

The Damage Output: Axel 2 has a very high damage output, almost every attack (throw exclude) he has in his moveset benefit from a higher value than regular character value.
Jab 6 vs 4 / String Combo 44 vs 32 / Off Special 74 vs 36 / Air Stun Atk 12 vs 8 / Blitz 0* 48 vs lol / Y Atk (24 vs 12)
That means, whatever he lands, he suck off more life. The main problem is he will not land those move easily (low reach or unsafe) and that's why is real damage is weak. But I play him for years by now, and with good setup, tacticsn trap, collision map, enemy placement, you can doin' damage with him. If you play coop, you will easily see it, since your partner make you safe. (easy setup)

I hope this help.  Neutral 

Now concerning Elle Throw Game. She has great damage with it (which count for her damage output too) she has the Tomoe Nagi (Judo leg throw) which is the best toss of the game. But no slam and no bongo throw. Even Axel 2 have slam. She has 3/5 maximum in throw game to me.

PS: I will do Blaze 2 later (my second character), and
I would definite Axel 2 as mid tiers - or low tiers +


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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  DarkThief on Wed Dec 18, 2013 11:49 am

Solinarius wrote:Elle
Damage Output: Substantial 3/5
Rush combo has pretty decent numbers, especially if you exploit the rear hits on the 3rd attack. Throw damage is among the highest of the common grapples. Defensive special probably the most damaging of all characters.

Air Game: bad 2/5
In-place jump kick is extremely unsafe around anti-air and is difficult to use. Jump Kick has good priority, damage, reach, and is safer than Blaze's. Stun attack is excellent, pretty much on par with Blaze's.

Throw Game: Good 4/5
All throws provide excellent crowd control. The throws are brief, but I think it's better this way for Elle.

Weapon Game: Poor 2/5
Flurry with knife seems to be unblockable, does decent damage and hits behind, but still leaves you vulnerable to counters. Katana blitz is very good but can be countered by air attacks. Every else is garbage.

Throws are actually standard damage (32) but none of them work on fatties or safe landers, which is why I gave them only 2/5. Her air game is better than most characters due to the quality of the main jump kick (who needs verticals except on Jet 2) so that's why I gave it 4/5.

Her weapon game is actually rather good. Not only does the knife/sword have decent specials, but her pipe/sword swing is one of the best in the game despite it not looking like that - it seems to unsettle the enemies in a way that other toons don't, and if you're standing in a corner it's quite hard for someone to get around the back while she's swinging it. (Rudra is the same with her swings)

BigDarsh wrote:
Mobility: very bad 2/5
His walk/run are decent
His jump is low reach so it is bad for plateforming
He outclass Max but that's all.

Axel is much worse than Max (and anyone else) for mobility - Max can move quite fast with his blitzes AND he's immune while doing so...Axel can't do a thing unless he runs and jump kicks. (he's the only toon who could be soloed by a Galsia-1 with bat if he's not careful)
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Dec 18, 2013 12:06 pm

Very Good point about Axel Mobility Dark Thief. I forgot that Blitz count toward mobility (Max / Adam have blitz to move away, but not Axel).
I will wait for other people opinion but I would definitly put to all Axel version Mobility 1/5 for the reason you gave. Thank you.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  bareknuckleroo on Wed Dec 18, 2013 2:06 pm

Stamina's always been the silliest stat to me. SoR3's Reach stat is at least more meaningful. The only game where the rating actually seems to directly affect your health is the Game Gear port of SoR2 where Skate, who has 1 star in stamina compared to 2, seems to have slightly less health than the others (or takes more damage?). On Hard, if you're at full health the exploding bots in the factory will leave you with a sliver of health as Axel or Blaze, whereas Skate seems to die instantly. It's been awhile since I've used Skate in that game, though, and it's a fairly minor difference.

Don Vecta wrote:While the speed and throw range is quite top, none of her grabs have slamming properties, thus Elle would have serious issues with Bongo-1/3 in case they're around in a crowd. Not to mention that facing enemies with tech rolling properties (Mona & Lisa, the judos, the Shivas, Roo, Jet-2) also would give her a huge disadvantage since she has to rely in a less damaging grab flurry instead (that probably would cost her invincibility frames and spacing).

Yeah, the characters that lack a slam throw (Elle, Roo, Mr. X) have to be careful when dealing with unthrowable enemies be it the large enemies that crush you or the ones that can safe land. For Mr. X, this isn't an issue - his punches are ridiculously fast and damaging and he always has the option of hopping up and down while spamming his defensive special for sweeping the screen that works pretty much anywhere (top tier character material, folks). Sure, he's got that jumping vault kick, but it pales in comparison to his throw.

As a side note, Roo actually does have a slam throw in SoR3 - his counter throw (when grabbed from behind) actually slams enemies. It doesn't do this in SoRR anymore, though, and you can safe land from it.

The only way he can move fast is by spamming his blitz 0 or 1.

However, if you spam the heck out of it, it's an incredibly safe way to move around quickly in order to grab enemies, and he can also reposition himself more easily when grabbing an enemy by jumping in any direction and slamming. He's got more mobility options than Axel does thanks to that sliding blitz in my opinion. Kinda like how Zan's 0 star blitz lets him be an absolute speed demon when he needs to be.

Solinarius wrote:Air Game: bad 2/5
In-place jump kick is extremely unsafe around anti-air and is difficult to use. Jump Kick has good priority, damage, reach, and is safer than Blaze's. Stun attack is excellent, pretty much on par with Blaze's.

I'm confused as to why she gets a 2/5 when your only complaint is about her standing attack. A lot of people have bad standing attacks, and frankly I've learned to love her jump kick and stunning D+J attack, they really are solid. The jump kick is what you'll be using 90% of the time anyways, so she deserves at least a 4/5 for having solid, reliable options (so long as you avoid wasting time with the standing one).

Defensive special probably the most damaging of all characters.

Her defensive special is a multihit like Zan's or Roo's. This automatically makes them suck as, for the most part, you need to be quite close to an enemy to connect with all the hits. In Elle's case you pretty much need to be on top of an enemy if I recall, though her defensive does a bit more than her offensive and is safer, obviously. The worst part is that multihit defensives are weak as hell when attacking aerial enemies as only one hit will connect, making it take unnecessarily long to deal with Jets or Bikers safely when they swoop past you as you'll be forced to resort to jump kicks or throwing enemies into them if there's a crowd.

Well, I'd say all Roo has is technique and speed. His tail poke is unstoppable and he has a good throw. Damage from him comes only from blitz 3 and throws. I feel he dishes out a bit more than Zan, overall.

Zan's probably still better in terms of damage, honestly. Roo can safely beat out nearly any boss one-on-one and normally crazy enemies like kickboxers with his tail poke, and if you manage to get groups lined up he can tail poke them to death slowly, but tail poking stuff takes forever. His options for sweeping through groups suck, especially when the group includes something not easily tail poked (icky jump kick that does lower than average damage and doesn't stay extended, blitzes with low range). Blitz 2 and 3 aren't bad for damage (3's tied for game best with Ash's 3 star, but only if you use it on an enemy against a wall or the side of the screen to connect all the hits), but they don't have much reach or priority. They generally won't beat out other attacks the way Adam's, Zan's, Rudra's, etc, good blitzes will. His throw is really good, but he has no really good alternative to enemies that can't be thrown, and his rear grab attack sucks pretty hard due to its terrible damage.

Zan on the other hand has insane that crowd control with his electric arms blitzes or just his 0 star dash, and he's got throwing options from front and back as well as that very strong slam from behind (that will slam Bongo enemies too unless I'm mistaken?). Zan's standing punches suck for damage, but they're more there for a quick knockdown or to help stagger so you can get a grab in. Zan's also a much, much better weapon user (one of the better ones in the game), and any of the pipes or swords you find really help out his damage output.

Roo's running speed is pretty solid but his his 0 star blitz has horrendous startup time, his standing combo is a bit laggy, and his frontal grab flurry takes forever for the little damage it does compared to characters that just knee the enemy with one or two animation frames.
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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Wed Dec 18, 2013 3:34 pm

^ I agree with the defensive special. While it's damaging and allows good combos, plus has adequate invincible time, the multi-hit part weakens her on floating/jumping enemies.

BKR, looking forward to your intake of Roo.


Okay, into business. Rudra stats (by Don Vecta).

Damage Output: Mediocre 2/5
Rudra's raw damage is low, plain and simple. Then again, nothing much is expected from a kunoichi. She does have some moves that allow her to inflict moderate to good damage: her Izuna Drop (back grab) and her blitz 2 and 3. Vertical jump kick is also painful. But besides that, she's rather weak.

Reach: Incredible 5/5
I think she has one of the best range from all the characters... probly paired with Zan on that matter. Rush combo can keep Abadede's GWAAARGH at arm's length, same outmatch Souther's slashes.
All her Blitz game is competent and spammable due of the reach.
Back attack has good reach as well.
Her offensive special is designed to take out enemies from afar: it's a fucking projectile! Even her defensive special has good range.

Safe move: Solid 4/5
Her arsenal hardly puts her on jeopardy for enemy retaliation. Blitzes are quick and with small frame recovery, hell, even her blitz-3 allows her to hit enemies in the back as she's landing from her uppercut (she usually suckersmacks bastards who are willing to retaliate from behind).
Defensive special is pretty good, it lasts long, thus longer invincibility frames and even long lasting hitboxes, she's able to let pass through a tunnel train if timed properly.
Even her rush combo, that has 5 hits, it's fast enough to recover quickly.
Not to mention her sidestep move gives her total invincibility and higher displacement, allowing her to escape on hairy situations.

Air Game: Okay 3/5
Vertical jump attack is fantastic! IMHO, one of her best air tools: can be done right after jump, hitting enemies on takeoff, has hitbox in BOTH legs which allows her to hit enemies approaching from behind, looooong reach and good damage.
Forward jump kick is decent and does the job, mediocre damage and reach, though.
Jump down attack it's laughable, all the opposite of her vertical jump kick. Unreliable, horrible reach and horrible hitbox.

Throw Game: Sub-par 2/5
Besides her awesome Izuna Drop, she has a weak grab game. Even the Izuna Drops has flaws: hits twice and if the enemy dies on the first hit, she won't complete the grab, leaving her vulnerable a bit. Scoring is like a normal hit attack, not like the normal 200 points most grabs have. It is a slam, though, and her quick recovery frames on landing, allows to re-grab most enemies on wake-up (except troll ninjas, as they stand up faster).
Front grab it's slow (which could be an advantage due of invincibility frames), poor throw range, piss-poor damage and atop of it, anti-fatty and tech rollers.
Her Ibuki no Jutsu (neutral front grab), while looks good and multi-hits, its damage it's pretty bad (as most neutral grabs do).

Weapon Game: Adequate 3/5
Pipe/Katana/bat swing is decent: good range and average to good swing speed.
Her special katana attack is great and gives her safety on landing her shoryuken-like slash.
But what takes the gold is her offensive special katana attack, which damage is MONSTROUS! Her thrust pierce through the enemies and it's fairly safe to use as well. Rudra + Katana = RUN!
Her Kunai game is interesting, while the speed is as good as a knife thrust, her kunai special should be used with caution. Can be effective under certain occasions and can't be abused as she's unsafe on landing and whiffing her thrown kunais. Bottom line: her weapon game relies on the specials more than normal attacks.

Mobility: Groovy 5/5
Walk is normal, but her run is definitely fast fast fast, same her jump reach. Most moves are quick and with low recovery frames. Her game relies a lot on constant movement and she can run across the screen at ease.

All in All: Rudra is a character that needs to be in constant movement to be effective and rely on her safety of her moves. Her reach and speed are her best tools that, if used properly, can give her the upper hand. High tier character, IMHO.

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Re: General Character Discussion

Post  Solinarius on Wed Dec 18, 2013 4:31 pm

Don Vecta wrote:
Solinarius wrote:
Throw Game: Good 4/5
All throws provide excellent crowd control. The throws are brief, but I think it's better this way for Elle.

I'd like to debate on this one, though.
While the speed and throw range is quite top, none of her grabs have slamming properties, thus Elle would have serious issues with Bongo-1/3 in case they're around in a crowd. Not to mention that facing enemies with tech rolling properties (Mona & Lisa, the judos, the Shivas, Roo, Jet-2) also would give her a huge disadvantage since she has to rely in a less damaging grab flurry instead (that probably would cost her invincibility frames and spacing). I guess the lack of a slamming grab that could put fatties and tech rollers in place, I'd give her 3/5.

I'm still not convinced that the lack of a slam/Bongo throw merits less than a 4/5.It's only a minor inconvenience in Elle's case (just don't try to throw Bongos, lol). Elle's greatest strength lies within in her long reach. Throwing enemies away keeps her safe, whether they land or fall. All that said, would you still say 3/5? The argument could be made that, if Blaze is a 4/5, Elle is 3/5.

Well, without a throw, quite a bit of Elle's damage is gone, so I guess 3/5 is merrited. I'm still on the fence about it though, because that's just one flaw in an otherwise perfect set of throws.

bareknuckleroo wrote:Yeah, the characters that lack a slam throw (Elle, Roo, Mr. X) have to be careful when dealing with unthrowable enemies be it the large enemies that crush you or the ones that can safe land.

Solinarius wrote:Air Game: bad 2/5
In-place jump kick is extremely unsafe around anti-air and is difficult to use. Jump Kick has good priority, damage, reach, and is safer than Blaze's. Stun attack is excellent, pretty much on par with Blaze's.

I'm confused as to why she gets a 2/5 when your only complaint is about her standing attack. A lot of people have bad standing attacks, and frankly I've learned to love her jump kick and stunning D+J attack, they really are solid. The jump kick is what you'll be using 90% of the time anyways, so she deserves at least a 4/5 for having solid, reliable options (so long as you avoid wasting time with the standing one).

Defensive special probably the most damaging of all characters.

Her defensive special is a multihit like Zan's or Roo's. This automatically makes them suck as, for the most part, you need to be quite close to an enemy to connect with all the hits. In Elle's case you pretty much need to be on top of an enemy if I recall, though her defensive does a bit more than her offensive and is safer, obviously. The worst part is that multihit defensives are weak as hell when attacking aerial enemies as only one hit will connect, making it take unnecessarily long to deal with Jets or Bikers safely when they swoop past you as you'll be forced to resort to jump kicks or throwing enemies into them if there's a crowd.

Fixed a few typos in my review, namely the 2/5 rating in air game Laughing.

Thanks for pointing out the finer details that I'd overlooked, fixed my review a bit.

I don't really use weapons much on Elle, though the knife flurry can be asset, at times. Her defensive special can still match most others even if it only hits 3 times and its multi-hits are more useful against blockers. Fighting Bongos can be incredibly annoying though because I just want to throw them lol.
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