Boss Discussion

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:28 pm

BigDarsh wrote:Barbon, Ash, Thouzer and Antonio are great stage 1 bosses if combined with some low level mooks, but there are some I saw or would like to see as first level Bosses:

Jack and/or Slash combined with Galsias with knife and/or gun men + low level mooks

Bruce with 2 Victy + low level mooks

Bongo SoR I + waves of 2 soozie + waves of 2 donnies + smaller Z axis than usual
(5 enemies on screen limitation here)

Zamza + waves of 3 to 4 donnies

Twins SoR I
I don't know exactly what to do with her, but I'm pretty sure with the right AI, and pairing them with interesting mooks, there is something to do. I liked the one in HUNTER btw, when coupled with Mona or Lisa, (don't remember.), but maybe something a bit tougher.
I can certainly agree with using Jack as a boss, probably with 2 Slashes for back-up. Bongo SoR1 could also work, but I see him as more of a Stage 2 boss. Zamza...hmm, I see him as Stage 3 or higher, not lower.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Wed Aug 21, 2013 11:19 am

Ideas I've had in my head...

2x Barbon + Mr. X, no mooks, lvl 5-ish boss battles

1xRoo + 8x low lifebar Bruce + 1x Electra2 with donny2 support...

1-hit-killable Bruce x40 + 1 boss Nora with 3 health bars XD

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Wed Aug 21, 2013 5:31 pm

I personally see Barbon as a great boss character. IMHO, he's not an easy boss and he becomes relentless if set in later stages (especially on mania): blockfest, mid range reach, he practically won't let you grab him (breaks free quickly), anti-air skycraper kick and overall he plays defensively keeping himself on diagonal position over the character, which allows his mooks (if any) to do the dirty work).

I see Bongo-1 as one of the easiest bosses of the roster and he could be set for stage 1 boss or even Sub-boss.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Wed Aug 21, 2013 6:54 pm

Don Vecta wrote:I personally see Barbon as a great boss character. IMHO, he's not an easy boss and he becomes relentless if set in later stages (especially on mania): blockfest, mid range reach, he practically won't let you grab him (breaks free quickly), anti-air skycraper kick and overall he plays defensively keeping himself on diagonal position over the character, which allows his mooks (if any) to do the dirty work).
Which reminds me, you can adjust the difficulty level of the various enemy characters in SORMaker, can't you? Which means you could just as easily make Barbon the final boss of a mod, with the difficulty setting at the highest possible level.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Aug 21, 2013 9:44 pm

In the case of Barbon, it's not a manual set. As Don Vecta say, If you use Barbon in stage 7, he will be much tougher since he will block more, on top of using all of his moveset the best he can. If you use Barbon in Stage 1, he will not be that annoying.

the same thing goes for other mooks such as Goldie being a painfully tedious mook at the Stage 5 or more. I think you really should have a look on the encyclopedia I linked in the first page, even if it is on the old forum, and it is not update to V5.0a, you still have plenty of interesting info which are not out of use.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Thu Aug 22, 2013 9:39 am

Yeah, the AI upgrades automatically according to the stage you're at. I shouldn't be saying this, but got a Barbon set as final boss in one route for a mod I've been working with. Won't say whom I'm pairing him with, but it's a great challenge.

In fact, Barbon was the final boss in Golden Rage trilogy in the Golden Axe 3 route... along with thousand of traps around him, lol

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Thu Aug 22, 2013 1:19 pm

Don Vecta wrote:I personally see Barbon as a great boss character. IMHO, he's not an easy boss and he becomes relentless if set in later stages (especially on mania): blockfest, mid range reach, he practically won't let you grab him (breaks free quickly), anti-air skycraper kick and overall he plays defensively keeping himself on diagonal position over the character, which allows his mooks (if any) to do the dirty work).

I see Bongo-1 as one of the easiest bosses of the roster and he could be set for stage 1 boss or even Sub-boss.
Bongo-1 + Jet-2 would be a great combination as a stage 1 boss -- he has diagonally-moving attacks while Jet attacks on the X- and Y-axis. One or two Donnies will kick that into higher gear...

***EDIT*** Robo-X + (double) Bongo-1... you need to stay lined up correctly so they can't torch you, but that means Robo-X will try to shoot you or toss out some missiles while running around. Muhahahaha... and you can't throw them around easily because they're fat guys and Robot-X will break free if you wait to throw him too long, so abusing invincible frames will be an issue. pirat 

I definitely agree about Barbon being a great boss. Having to fight him with strong mook backup in Gangs of Fury is mean all over... (multiple donnies and gunmen... argh... even with stage 2 AI he still is nasty as heck and has 4-5 lifebars.)

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Thu Aug 22, 2013 6:03 pm

Bongo-1 would probably make for a good Stage 1 boss, if only because he's predictable. So far, though, comments about him have suggested that he be paired with other people for a bigger challenge. That being the case, he could probably be paired with at least 2 or 3 Bongo-2s or Bongo-3s, since they all appear to be smaller than Bongo-1 (but Bongo-3 similarly can't be thrown).

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sat Aug 24, 2013 6:16 am

Bongo-1 was designed under the gameplay limitations of SOR 1, where movement was slow, there were no invincibility frame specials and trying to throw or slam him would be a punishment due of his weight. With SORR gameplay, though, his"strength points are easily overcome and even the mook level Big Ben and Bongo-3 are harder than him, to the point that they had to add an elbow drop to add difficulty.

As for pairing him with other mooks or bosses, he needs staff that keep the players busy, so his breath rush could be effective. Up close attackers are preferred

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Sat Aug 24, 2013 4:03 pm

Don't know about you guys but I think Bongo-2 is nasty in groups... if you get slapped repeatedly by more than one or they do a double belly drop... can take off a whole lifebar in seconds. Now that I think of it... 3-4 of them with 2/3x lifebars plus support from either:

- 2-3 Galsia-1 (with their punch combo that immobilizes you)
or
- 1-2 Ninjos (same + blocking + long range sword slashes)

would be at least stage 4 boss in difficulty... if not more.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sat Aug 24, 2013 10:10 pm

Big Bens are nasty indeed. Even though the damage of the fucking belly drop got dramatically reduced on v5.0a, they are, IMHO, the hardest of all them fatasses.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Sun Aug 25, 2013 4:13 am

Just fought Big Bear in the main game, on Mania mode. Accompanied by a multitude of SOR2-Big Bens and a few other mooks. While in Computer-helper mode, using Shiva as my main and Rudra as assist. Still got my ass kicked multiple times before I finally took him down. (N.B. this is while using 5.0 flat; was downloading 5.0a at the same time.)

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Aug 25, 2013 5:44 pm

I agree about Big Ben / Bongo 2 being the hardest fatties mooks of the game.

I was wondering about who is the most nasty high tier level mooks in SoRRv5.0a (in their best AI set)?
here is my pool: Jack 2 / Slash / Trucker / Kickboxer (Raven, Eagle) / Ninja 2 / Ninja 3 / Ninjo

I really don't know but here is my top 2 (no order, equal to me):
-Kickboxer being very well equiped (Range Attack / Anti-Air / Block Ability / Multiple low kicks)
-Ninja 2 being very fast and having a tedious Jumping Punch (with overprecedence and even i-Frame i think) and teleport evade

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Tue Aug 27, 2013 11:20 am

And kickboxers have also a grab too.

For me, Ninjos can be a serious pain in the ass: block block block and far slashes, hell, they can block while they're about to do a slash attack!

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Wed Aug 28, 2013 1:58 pm

Don Vecta wrote:For me, Ninjos can be a serious pain in the ass: block block block and far slashes, hell, they can block while they're about to do a slash attack!
Which of the two would make better boss material - the Chibas (SoR2 Ninjas) or the Ninjos? The former are extremely agile, near-impossible to hit when they're jumping around, and all-around pains to the balls, and as stated above, the latter can block and can also jump forward and slash when you least expect it.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Aug 28, 2013 6:19 pm

I don't know if it will help you but IMHO, all of my pool can be use as Boss Battle or Sub-Boss battle with the right setting, but almost never in regular Battle
here is my pool: Jack 2 / Slash / Trucker / Kickboxer (Raven, Eagle) / Ninja 2 / Ninja 3 / Ninjo
The exception might be Ninja 3. I really do think Ninja 2 shouldn't be use that much for regular battle even in later stages since he's much tougher than he use to be in SoR2. On top of that, you didn't meet them this much in the whole original SoR2 game. This is what is Ninja 3 is good for IMHO once again. He's less nasty and can be use for theming purpose while not being painfully frustrating while meeting him every "now and then".

And yeah, I do agree, the ability to Auto-Block while slashing for Ninjos is a really good feature indeed that is not to be ignored!

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Thu Aug 29, 2013 10:50 pm

Question for consideration. Shiva, Ash, Elle, Roo, Rudra and Mr. X are all playable bosses/sub-bosses/high-tier mooks, with good character stats and biographies. But who else among the bad guys could have similarly been unlockable characters? Personally, I'd go for Barbon, Abadede, Zamza, and Robot X.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Fri Aug 30, 2013 9:52 pm

For me Abadede is one of the most complete enemies that could be playable: rush combo (weird chop chop then a downward chop), defensive special (GWAAAAARGH!), a blitz 0/1 (running clothesline), jump down attack (body press), front grab series (spoon stab), front backwards grab (overshoulder throw), back grab (German suplex), his anti-air upper could be either a back attack or part of his rush combo.

He'd only need offensive special, blitz 2 and 3, grab/jump attack (doubt he could vault the opponent), neutral grab attack (could use the anti-air upper for that), forward jump attack (I'd go with an elbow drop myself) and a front grab knockdown attack after the spoons (maybe a wrestling pimp slap attack?).

Bear also could be complete enough to be playable.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Sep 01, 2013 6:53 pm

it's a bit off topic, but the SoR2 Hack from Adrimus with Abadede as a playable character is IMHO by far the best "enemy to character conversion" mod at this time, and that's give Don Vecta opinion a little more consistency to me.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Tue Sep 03, 2013 10:48 pm

Don Vecta wrote:For me Abadede is one of the most complete enemies that could be playable: rush combo (weird chop chop then a downward chop), defensive special (GWAAAAARGH!), a blitz 0/1 (running clothesline), jump down attack (body press), front grab series (spoon stab), front backwards grab (overshoulder throw), back grab (German suplex), his anti-air upper could be either a back attack or part of his rush combo.

He'd only need offensive special, blitz 2 and 3, grab/jump attack (doubt he could vault the opponent), neutral grab attack (could use the anti-air upper for that), forward jump attack (I'd go with an elbow drop myself) and a front grab knockdown attack after the spoons (maybe a wrestling pimp slap attack?).

Bear also could be complete enough to be playable.
I can agree with Bear being potentially playable. Rush combo (jab-jab-jab-strong punch), defensive special (rising uppercut), blitz (rushing uppercut), jump down attack (butt-drop), front grab series (headbutt)...he'd just need a blitz-2+ attack, offensive special, back attack, front backwards grab and back grab, and a forward jump attack.

For Barbon: he's already got a rush combo (the punching attacks, possibly followed by his high kick), defensive special (roundhouse kick), front backwards grab (his throw)...alternatively, his roundhouse could be his offensive special and his "COME ON" flex could be a defensive special, maybe? Then he'd need a blitz attack, jumping attacks, and a back grab, plus whatever else I'm forgetting just now.

For Zamza: he has a rush attack (the multiple slashes up-close), possible defensive special (rising Shoryuken-slash), offensive special (rolling slash), possible blitz attack (the slide), a grab that could work for both front-backwards grab and back grab (the suplex), and he's already got a running animation. He also has a jumping attack (the jump-kick).

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  DarkThief on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:47 am

bareknuckleroo wrote:The SoR2 style jets can be blitzed out of their horizontal dashes by Zan's 3 star, but his 2 star seems much less reliable for some reason.
Ash can also blitz them out with 2-star. (and probably 3-star as well but never got to try)

BigDarsh wrote:In the case of Barbon, it's not a manual set. As Don Vecta say, If you use Barbon in stage 7, he will be much tougher since he will block more, on top of using all of his moveset the best he can. If you use Barbon in Stage 1, he will not be that annoying.
Don Vecta wrote:Yeah, the AI upgrades automatically according to the stage you're at.
Kinda weird, considering that in the original game he was harder in stage 1 than in stage 5, and even easier in stage 8. (same with the other repeated bosses like Zamza and Abadede)

Shadow Fist King wrote:Just fought Big Bear in the main game, on Mania mode. Accompanied by a multitude of SOR2-Big Bens and a few other mooks. While in Computer-helper mode, using Shiva as my main and Rudra as assist. Still got my ass kicked multiple times before I finally took him down. (N.B. this is while using 5.0 flat; was downloading 5.0a at the same time.)
Bear was buffed somewhat in 5.0a, originally you could stand in the top corner and kill him with defensive fly-kicks and reliably trick him into jumping at you (giving you a free hit when he lands). Now he's unpredictable, though there are a few blitzes that can beat him fairly reliably.

(and btw you don't have to fight him with everyone else around, you can take each fattie and mook individually before you reach him)
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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Thu Oct 10, 2013 1:57 am

Barbon in the old games used to be tougher while Vulture and Wayne were weaker.... but in SORmaker standards, Barbon (or in general, everyone) gets seriously buffed as level goes by (word of God, BTW). You can notice how meek mooks like Slums block almost everything and become a huge nuisance in top levels. Zamza is the type who could block and grab you if you're nearby (especially if he blocked a blitz). Abadede it's lot tougher as level increase, but then again, due of the new new patch, he's still easily beatable s character have bigger grab range.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:01 am

Okay, I just fought SOR1-Bongo/Big Ben in a mod I'm designing, and my first reaction to being able to throw him without difficulty is... "Huh?" I'm using the 5.0a version just now, which probably explains it, but I'd gotten used to his selling point being (at least in the original 5.0) that you COULDN"T throw him without him crushing you with his weight. Now, he seems to have been disappointingly weakened to me.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  DarkThief on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:06 am

Shadow Fist King wrote:Okay, I just fought SOR1-Bongo/Big Ben in a mod I'm designing, and my first reaction to being able to throw him without difficulty is... "Huh?" I'm using the 5.0a version just now, which probably explains it, but I'd gotten used to his selling point being (at least in the original 5.0) that you COULDN"T throw him without him crushing you with his weight. Now, he seems to have been disappointingly weakened to me.
That's a buff to Shiva's throws, which were changed so they work on all fatties (bit illogical really, if anyone should be able to throw them it's Zan). Plus there are a small number of other grab moves that always worked. (all of Max's/Skate's, Rudra's izuna drop)
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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Thu Oct 10, 2013 2:50 am

DarkThief wrote:That's a buff to Shiva's throws, which were changed so they work on all fatties (bit illogical really, if anyone should be able to throw them it's Zan). Plus there are a small number of other grab moves that always worked. (all of Max's/Skate's, Rudra's izuna drop)
Oh, okay then. I was fighting him with Shiva, not anyone else, so I was kinda wondering. I guess Shiva got stronger then. Razz

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