Boss Discussion

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Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Mon Aug 12, 2013 9:26 pm

A place to discuss the various bosses in the SoR series, their strengths, weaknesses, combat strategies, character analyses (where possible), and how they could grow as characters in the SoRR world.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Crash Dummie on Tue Aug 13, 2013 4:19 pm

The Ultimate War... Abadede really got nerfed in 5a. And it's a good thing I would say. He was incredibly cheap before, and you had to resort on equally cheap and boring tactics to defeat him.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:22 pm

http://www.bombergames.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2812&sid=099673847363909b4e50a00e5d40e9d6

Unfinished data base, and not update to v5.0a, but still an awesome material to discuss with. Thumbs up 

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Tue Aug 13, 2013 5:29 pm

BigDarsh wrote:http://www.bombergames.net/forum/viewtopic.php?f=8&t=2812&sid=099673847363909b4e50a00e5d40e9d6

Unfinished data base, and not update to v5.0a, but still an awesome material to discuss with. Thumbs up 
That's from the old forum site that this one is based on. I doubt anyone goes there anymore except for old references.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:30 pm

Abadede was material for final boss or stage 7 type of boss. What made him lot weaker was basically: 1) GRWAAAARGHH special percentage was reduced dramatically. You won't do a standing punch and he doing an auto roid rage immediately. 2) the range of grab of all the characters got increased a lot, thus, his tactic to approach from above or below and grab you puts him in disadvantage since odds are you'd grab him first.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Aug 13, 2013 7:36 pm

Abadede was material for final boss or stage 7 type of boss
This.

Some modders use v5.0 Abadede in the way he belong to such as in Adam Story Extended or The Gang of Fury.

However, now he's weaken, he belong to a lower class Boss (but not the lowest one) as he was in SoR original series (Stage 3-4 Boss). So I can't blame the patch for nerfing him, since this game try to be the best tribute it can to the original series, and that benefit SoR1/2 Route from SoRR but some Epic battles from particulary epic mods just disappear with 5.0a...

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Tue Aug 13, 2013 9:34 pm

Boss-Ash is not a real threat on his own, but combined with other enemies... ugh. He just loves to run in for a grab when you're otherwise occupied. While it is possible to special out of his frontal grab slam, it requires extremely tight timing. Here's a trick, though... you can land safely from his rear-grab throw. So while the character bio tells you not to turn your back on him... it's actually a good tactic to prevent getting slammed.

The reverse goes for fighting Mona/Lisa (sor1 and sor3 incarnations). The one that is in "defensive" mode (Lisa/Yohimine) will try to grab you from behind if you turn your back to her and do a painful inescapable suplex. So make sure you keep facing her if she's close-by.

Jet (sor2/sor3) can be kept off-screen by standing right next to the edge and timing your jumpkicks well. If no other enemies or players interfere, they can be killed easily and cheaply. They might occasionally circle around you, though. If playing co-op, and trying to bait Jet into doing his flying punch, it's important to stay on the same z-axis as your partner.

Samurais (sor3) are no threat on their own, but will straight-up murder you with their ninja stars if you can't get close to them. Additionally, their shots will travel through you and can hit your teammate too! Here's another interesting tidbit -- if they do their suicide explosion, it will also cause every weapon on the ground to explode as well, possibly damaging you!

If playing with a friend, watch out for the Particlebot (sor2) when they shoot their lasers. Those will go right through you and can hit your partner (even worse... rolling or doing a special so you don't get hit but your teammate does).

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Crash Dummie on Wed Aug 14, 2013 5:42 am

BigDarsh wrote:
Abadede was material for final boss or stage 7 type of boss
This.

Some modders use v5.0 Abadede in the way he belong to such as in Adam Story Extended or The Gang of Fury.

However, now he's weaken, he belong to a lower class Boss (but not the lowest one) as he was in SoR original series (Stage 3-4 Boss). So I can't blame the patch for nerfing him, since this game try to be the best tribute it can to the original series, and that benefit SoR1/2 Route from SoRR but some Epic battles from particulary epic mods just disappear with 5.0a...
He was laughably easy in SOR1; the jabbing technique worked too perfectly.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Wed Aug 14, 2013 6:42 am

He was laughably easy in SOR1; the jabbing technique worked too perfectly.
This statement is perfectly true, and i totally agree with you so keep that in mind while reading what follow Wink

First: I will not speak about Mr.X here
If you look at one of the biggest flaw of SoR1: it is that jabbing loop destroy every boss. On top of that, a lot of them was not that hard to trap-into it such as: Antonio, Souther, Abadede, Bongo
It was a bit harder to lock the twins while playing solo since they were two, but still doable to lock both of them on the loop.

My point is: i'm not sure (suggestion here) that dev would like to make them "this" easy to beat.
When SoR2 cames out, they add Def. Special , blocking ability or both to every bosses in the game to prevent that possibility.

Now if you look at SoRR V5.0, Abadede is one of the toughest boss, if not the toughest and he is used in stage 3 (SoR1 Route) or stage 4 (SoR2 Route). It just does not fits.
In the original series, you wouldn't fight a Boss this hard in the middle of the game. Even if you count the jab loop from SoR1, the Bosses get tougher and tougher as you progress through the game (not that linear, i do agree, but you get my point).

With v5.0a patch, it's Abadede from SoR2 and it fits the difficulty progression flow, so even if I miss him a bit for some Mods where he's used at a climatic point, it is still an "objective wise choice" from the patch to tone him down (but not to the point of SoR1 since you know... outdated!)

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:37 pm

Been sparring with two Shiva's (Event Mission #10) and I think I'm seeing a pattern -- does AI Shiva do the flaming kick when it detects invincible frames? Seems like it. For some reason, running up to him and doing a close-range blitz seems to work better than setting up attacks from further away.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Wed Aug 14, 2013 7:48 pm

I haven't tried the 5.0a version yet, but I think Abadede under 5.0 is getting something of a bad rap. I'll probably be speaking for myself alone, but I enjoy the challenge he presents--he forces me to maneuver my attacks and coordinate my character's movements a little faster. And, too, the same kind of arguments for his level of difficulty could be applied to characters like Zamza and Jet, and nobody's hashed those or other bosses yet for those same reasons. So if Abadede is Stage 7 boss material as he is now, so be it; at least he'll provide a decent challenge.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Crash Dummie on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:24 pm

I didn't really enjoy fighting him. I always beat him by sliding into his knees and running away. Rinse and repeat.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Wed Aug 14, 2013 8:40 pm

Crash Dummie wrote:I didn't really enjoy fighting him. I always beat him by sliding into his knees and running away. Rinse and repeat.
Abadede has a glaring weakness (this applies to 5.0 and the patched version)... just move slightly above or below him on the Z-axis and do a vertical jump when he tries to move to the same horizontal level as you or grab you from above/below. And when he moves within range, hit him with a stationary jumpkick for solid damage. Rinse. Repeat.

Another weakness he has is that on less than Very Hard/Mania difficulty level, you can just run (not walk, run!) up and grab him. As long as you don't flinch and let go of the "forward" button... you'll grab him the vast majority of the time.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Crash Dummie on Wed Aug 14, 2013 9:00 pm

Oh, in 5a he's just fine, I can beat him using strikes and grabs normaly. It's in the old 5 version that he was a nightmare.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Thu Aug 15, 2013 10:05 pm

One tactic I have for 5.0 Abadede is to get in as close as I can, do a combo attack on him, then if he starts to flex his muscles, back off and get out of range, then come back in and start the combo again. It works like a charm, but if I don't watch myself he'll either his me while flexing, or grab and pound/grab and throw me. Challenging, but fun. Very Happy 

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  bareknuckleroo on Fri Aug 16, 2013 2:23 am

The SoR2 style jets can be blitzed out of their horizontal dashes by Zan's 3 star, but his 2 star seems much less reliable for some reason. Odd, I thought they were similar enough that it wouldn't make that big of a difference. His 0 and 1 stars both get beat out as well, but that's no surprise as the hitbox is fairly short.
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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Fri Aug 16, 2013 4:07 am

bareknuckleroo wrote:The SoR2 style jets can be blitzed out of their horizontal dashes by Zan's 3 star, but his 2 star seems much less reliable for some reason. Odd, I thought they were similar enough that it wouldn't make that big of a difference. His 0 and 1 stars both get beat out as well, but that's no surprise as the hitbox is fairly short.
SoR3 Jet is, putting it simply, a pain in the @$$ compared to SoR2 Jet. I find that one of the most effective ways to deal with him is to use SoR2 or SoR3 Axel's forward-special and pummel him into oblivion.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sat Aug 17, 2013 5:28 am

Notes about Ash: He can be indeed a challenging boss if paired with endless close range attack mooks. But I still think he works well as stage 1 or 2 boss. Not strong material for further stages unless he's with tougher mooks instead.

About Yamato: He's heavily underestimated, especially in his boss 2 stance where his fighting style changes dramatically: has an invincible shinobi run, a invisible kunai shot, a Rudra-like kunai jump attack, etc. And he can be formidable paired up with blocking mooks like Tigers, Slums or Ninjos (play Adam's story in the church route and you'll know what I'm talking about).

About the judos (Yasha and Onihime): In SORmaker you can select their 3 different fighting styles (considering they only occupy one slot) by choosing the name of the character: the first name (by default Yasha) will have the flying kick spamfest, by choosing the second slot name (by default Onihime) will use run and grab techniques, and by the third slot onwards she will use mainly just rush combos, practically reduced herself at mook level. Put in mind that in the moment she's the last remaining mook of a wave, she'll immediately switch into Yasha mode and will unleash jumping kicks to her content.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:42 am

Don Vecta wrote:About Yamato: He's heavily underestimated, especially in his boss 2 stance where his fighting style changes dramatically: has an invincible shinobi run, a invisible kunai shot, a Rudra-like kunai jump attack, etc. And he can be formidable paired up with blocking mooks like Tigers, Slums or Ninjos (play Adam's story in the church route and you'll know what I'm talking about).
For some reason, when I look at Yamato, I immediately think "Shredder from TMNT!" Minus the cape and clawed gloves. Laughing

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:49 am

I guess this thread can be discussed about mooks that could be great bosses and bosses that could be great mooks too.

Slash. The Jason rip-off can become a nice boss for earlier stages due of his extensive usage of weapons, he's particularly dangerous with his UZI out. In order that he could be dangerous, he needs an unlimited company of mooks or maybe 2 Slashes at the same time.

Trucker. It's surprising how strong this hick can be! Invincibility frames on standing up, an ultra-fast one frame ditch kick, endless jab attack, a haymaker that he always uses when you turn the back to him, etc. He can be a great boss if you set him with the beer bottle... and since on v5.0a he can have more than x1 lifebars, this can be highly annoying. A set meal of mooks could add challenge for a nicely mid-stage boss fight.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  WillyTheSquid on Sun Aug 18, 2013 3:59 am

Don Vecta wrote:I guess this thread can be discussed about mooks that could be great bosses and bosses that could be great mooks too.

Slash. The Jason rip-off can become a nice boss for earlier stages due of his extensive usage of weapons, he's particularly dangerous with his UZI out. In order that he could be dangerous, he needs an unlimited company of mooks or maybe 2 Slashes at the same time.

Trucker. It's surprising how strong this hick can be! Invincibility frames on standing up, an ultra-fast one frame ditch kick, endless jab attack, a haymaker that he always uses when you turn the back to him, etc. He can be a great boss if you set him with the beer bottle... and since on v5.0a he can have more than x1 lifebars, this can be highly annoying. A set meal of mooks could add challenge for a nicely mid-stage boss fight.
That boss battle in Return of Mr.X.... 6 Truckers with bottles... oh dear god. Inventive.

Slash + Electra2 + Donovans + Galvice ... yeouch. Very nasty combo.

I am guessing Truckers + SoR1 Nora... would be a vicious combination.

Another one I'm tossing around for a "remix" project of sorts... SoR3 Samurai + duo Electra2...

I love mid-stage boss fights, "setpieces" I call 'em.

*EDIT* What I liked about Brutal Justice was that there were low-health bosses mixed in. SoR1 Bongo, Souther, SoR2 Zamza... that mod got it right, IMO.

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Don Vecta on Sun Aug 18, 2013 4:06 am

A boss fight I used in HUNTER was a set of a Shiva-3 in boss stance with 3 (6 in Mania) Truckers (2 with bottle, 2 with pipes, 2 bare handed), so, as a warm up they can be nasty... then when only one remains, Shiva will jump to the fray! Fantastic!

In Adam's Story stage 1, we put Slash and Jack as bosses (I love to pair them together) with an infinite set of Galsia-1 with knives. Pure razor sharp steel!

Also we proved in the same mod that Electra-2 can be a formidable boss paired up with endless Electras-3 and in a limited space area (Historic Society route in stage 2).

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Aug 18, 2013 2:14 pm

Thank you for the judos AI info Don Vecta, I wasn't aware of it!

In Adam's Story stage 1, we put Slash and Jack as bosses (I love to pair them together) with an infinite set of Galsia-1 with knives. Pure razor sharp steel!
That boss battle in Return of Mr.X.... 6 Truckers with bottles... oh dear god. Inventive.
This kind of thing makes the difference between a regular mod, and a "f*kin enjoyable Mod". I hope this thread will help modders with battle design!

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  Shadow Fist King on Tue Aug 20, 2013 3:38 pm

I've been wondering...who makes a better Stage 1 boss, Antonio or Barbon? Or someone else altogether?

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Re: Boss Discussion

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Aug 20, 2013 6:09 pm

Barbon, Ash, Thouzer and Antonio are great stage 1 bosses if combined with some low level mooks, but there are some I saw or would like to see as first level Bosses:

Jack and/or Slash combined with Galsias with knife and/or gun men + low level mooks

Bruce with 2 Victy + low level mooks

Bongo SoR I + waves of 2 soozie + waves of 2 donnies + smaller Z axis than usual
(5 enemies on screen limitation here)

Zamza + waves of 3 to 4 donnies

Twins SoR I
I don't know exactly what to do with her, but I'm pretty sure with the right AI, and pairing them with interesting mooks, there is something to do. I liked the one in HUNTER btw, when coupled with Mona or Lisa, (don't remember.), but maybe something a bit tougher.

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