Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

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Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  WillyTheSquid on Fri Aug 02, 2013 5:50 pm

I am curious -- what is the exact difference between Remake & Combined, and did 5.0a change anything?

Personally speaking, Remake makes for a much more enjoyable gaming style. Really good for my Adam, Axel1, Blaze2, Skate2, Zan, Rudra, Mr.X & Max, and Shiva's. If there's interest, I can do in-depth more, but it's a pretty big gray area for me so far.

Input?
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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  BigDarsh on Sat Aug 03, 2013 10:41 am

I must say that I'm a pause delay remake user for a long time by now, and we are pretty few to use this in this board, since mania is painfully difficult without pause delay SoR3 for most of the characters. (IMHO of course)

I must add that hard difficulty in 5.0a is too easy compared to what it was in 5.0. So I play very hard pause delay remake in 5.0a. This was to tell you how "good/bad" I am at this game, so you can evaluate my statements that follow.

I didn't notice any difference with the pause delay remake itself, but huge difference for using it with Adam and Elle. Elle use to be totally unplayable (IMHO) without pause delay SoR3, but it is not the case anymore since she earn some good recovery after every impact. Concerning Adam, is third attack in his primary combo get a better recovery too which make him just better than it was in pause delay remake, however, he was pretty good before.

I'm still maining Axel 2, and I didn't notice any difference with pause delay remake between the two version of the game.
PS: Shiva 2 still have his infinite combo in pause delay SoR3 in v5.0a.

I read lots of your post, and you seem to be very enlighted with the overall game system, and it will be a pleasure to read you speaking about pause delay in depht. alien

About "Combined": As far as I can tell, it use pause delay SoR2/remake/SoR3 depending on the character you use, but I might be wrong. If it is the case, this option is only useful for coop gaming.
ie: Elle is remake, Axel 3 is SoR3 etc...

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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  WillyTheSquid on Sat Aug 03, 2013 11:32 am

BigDarsh wrote:I must say that I'm a pause delay remake user for a long time by now, and we are pretty few to use this in this board, since mania is painfully difficult without pause delay SoR3 for most of the characters. (IMHO of course)

I must add that hard difficulty in 5.0a is too easy compared to what it was in 5.0. So I play very hard pause delay remake in 5.0a. This was to tell you how "good/bad" I am at this game, so you can evaluate my statements that follow.

NICE -- I'm also a "Very Hard + Remake Pause Delay" player. I also play mania occasionally, but my favorite mod (Gangs of Fury) isn't completely scaled for 1P mania, missing some enemies. And sometimes days my reflexes aren't up to 100%, so Very Hard is my go-to difficulty.

I didn't notice any difference with the pause delay remake itself, but huge difference for using it with Adam and Elle. Elle use to be totally unplayable (IMHO) without pause delay SoR3, but it is not the case anymore since she earn some good recovery after every impact. Concerning Adam, is third attack in his primary combo get a better recovery too which make him just better than it was in pause delay remake, however, he was pretty good before.

Adam + Remake pause delay in v5.0a has a much better 3rd hit in his combo... gives you a bit of time to set up moves and flexibility!
When you hit an enemy with a basic jab 1 or 2 times, you can then choose between:

  • -knockdown kick
  • -uppercut
  • --into launcher knockdown kick (finish combo normally, hits/activates other enemies)
  • --into non-launcher knockdown kick (Y, because no cooldown)
  • ---into non-launcher knockdown kick (Y)
  • --into blitz0/1
  • --into blitz2 (using X-button)
  • --into riot stopper (running special)
  • --move close into grab
  • ---then hold -> shoulder throw (invulnerability if you need to dodge projectiles/jumpkicks/whips)
  • ---quick elbow (fast 1hit knockdown with slight invulnerability, hard for enemies to dodge)
  • ---vault+suplex (is very safe but be very careful around SoR1/3 Bongo fire-breathing and SoR1 fire/axe throwers when using this...)


Lots and lots of options, similar to Axel1 -- not many characters come close to that, having so many things to choose from that are safe, reliable and easy to pull off.

I'm still maining Axel 2, and I didn't notice any difference with pause delay remake between the two version of the game.

I sort of see Axel2's appeal, but he is really hampered for me compared to Axel1 because his Y-knockdown is a 2-hitter (riskier, takes longer) and his offensive special is just... awful. In general I don't really 'get' Axel, so can you explain what makes Axel1/2/3 'tick' compared to Shiva, Adam, Blaze, Max, Skate...?

I read lots of your post, and you seem to be very enlighted with the overall game system, and it will be a pleasure to read you speaking about pause delay in depht. alien

Thanks! I'm err...flattered.. :DI've been powergaming sidescrollers (Capcom's AVP/KoD/KotR/FF3 and SoR2/3 mostly) for almost 15 years so that means a lot to me. Not bad feedback when I haven't even reached 15 posts...

About "Combined": As far as I can tell, it use pause delay SoR2/remake/SoR3 depending on the character you use, but I might be wrong. If it is the case, this option is only useful for coop gaming.
ie: Elle is remake, Axel 3 is SoR3 etc...

I am thinking something similar, yes. Anyone else have other input?

In other news, I managed to install Camtasia correctly I think, so once I get the hang of editing videos I make with that I'll be recording my playstyle (solo and co-op with friends) and putting playthroughs on YouTube. I'm thinking using the annotate function could be helpful for adding specific tips when discussing character tactics/game delay settings. Also thinking of introducing a few new terms for discussing moves, like the ones used in 1vs1 fighters... new topic is following Wink
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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  BigDarsh on Sun Aug 04, 2013 12:27 pm

Don't think I try to be nitpicky with what is following, since it is not. :p
I just want to be sure that we understand each others since technical discussion are complex, and english is not our lative languages:

Adam + Remake pause delay in v5.0a has a much better 3rd hit in his combo...
This statement is not "technically true". Adam has a better recovery on his primary combo third hit in v5.0a, whatever the pause delay you use.

This is in depth explanation:
Spoiler:
"Frame": Time Unit in video games. 60htz = 60 frames. 1 frames = 1/60 second.
"Start up": The number of frames needed for your attack to be active after you input the command.
"Hit Detect": The number of frames your attack is active and is able to connect.
"Recovery": The number of frames your attack need to recover after the Hit Detect ends. You can't pull out any action during this time. Some recovery benefit a cancel window that permit to cut out the recovery.
"Kara Cancel": The action to cancel the Start Up of a move by another one which permit the second action to benefit property from the first one. There is no Kara Cancel in SoRR, but they exist in many CPS1/2 side scroller, and fighting games.
"Cancel": The action to cancel the "Hit Detect" or the "Recovery" of a move by another one which permit to combo. In SoRR, every attack from a "primary combo" can be cancel into another one.
"Link": The action to link a move in the hitstun triggered by a previous attack after the recovery of the first attack.
"Hit Stun": The number of frames your opponent is "stun" after getting hit by an attack. This permits combo.
"Time Stop": The number of frames your character is freeze while connecting a move. In SoRR, you can alterate the Time Stop by changing the pause delay.

When you use Pause Delay SoR3, the time stop is almost nullify. This give:
- a better frame advantage after any hits which permits more link
- you earn access to the cancel window of any "primary combo" attack much faster.

In a word: more option to attack, easiest crowd control, and overall safer.

When you use Pause Delay Remake, the time stop is regular. It means you have to care more about the recovery of your moves, and you need more planning on attacking since unleashing a regular "primary combo" takes more time to achieve.


I sort of see Axel2's appeal, but he is really hampered for me compared to Axel1 because his Y-knockdown is a 2-hitter (riskier, takes longer) and his offensive special is just... awful.
I know, Axel 2 is the worst Axel version of the game.
Axel 3 is fast, with an invincible off special in v5.0a.
Axel 1 is a powerhouse, well balanced with an awfull jump game (attack included).
But Axel 2 is a very challenging character. You can't even rely on your primary combo since it's a five hit, and on pause delay remake, it's a con!
You have to rely a lot on your blitz 2 attack which deal decent damage 40, and his def special which is low damage (16) but very fast with good range!
His jump kick is not bad even if it's low damage (Cool but it has great reach with basic priority.
I love playing him, even if it's a chore sometime, it's highly rewarding when you manage to plan some stuff correctly. Wink
PS: His off special is a bit better in v5.0a since it's invincible to a lot of thing (back attack and projectile excluded), but still the worst off special of the game, even with damage this high (74!)

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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  WillyTheSquid on Mon Aug 05, 2013 7:56 pm

This statement is not "technically true". Adam has a better recovery on his primary combo third hit in v5.0a, whatever the pause delay you use.

That is completely correct, I was overly simplistic in my explanation!

This is in depth explanation:
"Frame": Time Unit in video games. 60htz = 60 frames. 1 frames = 1/60 second.
"Start up": The number of frames needed for your attack to be active after you input the command.
"Hit Detect": The number of frames your attack is active and is able to connect.
"Recovery": The number of frames your attack need to recover after the Hit Detect ends. You can't pull out any action during this time. Some recovery benefit a cancel window that permit to cut out the recovery.
"Cancel": The action to cancel the "Hit Detect" or the "Recovery" of a move by another one which permit to combo. In SoRR, every attack from a "primary combo" can be cancel into another one.
"Link": The action to link a move in the hitstun triggered by a previous attack after the recovery of the first attack.
"Hit Stun": The number of frames your opponent is "stun" after getting hit by an attack. This permits combo.

I am familiar with this terminology, I used to work with OpenBOR quite a bit where this is also used for scripting and general modding, as well as AvP, SFA3 and Gundam Wing Endless Duel advanced play -- although with those last 3 games I have seen the term "buffering" used to describe the act of inputting another move such as super/special/other-ish during the recovery or hit detect part of moves' animations.

Spoiler:
In Gundam Wing Endless Duel (SNES), for example, it is possible (and 100% safe) to link a backwards/forwards blockdash or upwards superjump if your opponent blocks a strong melee attack, because they are (hit)stunned even when blocking such an attack; this was described as "buffering".

And if they do not block it, the hitstun is longer so you have time to do a special or super (or super into special) during that. When playing Tallgeese, you could do this:
1. Normal forward dash (=non-blocking) [f, f] link into:
1a. >strong weapon attack (2 hits) [A]
1b1. >OR [c. strong weapon attack[/b] (2hits) [c+A] link into:
1b2.->strong weapon attack (2 hits) [A]
2. IF blocked:
2a.-->blocking backdash [A+B while holding b]
2b. -->OR blocking forward dash [A+B while holding f]
2c. -->OR superjump upwards [A+B neutral]
3. ->IF not blocked:
3a.-->strong non-weapon special [fqcf, A/X] (tiger-knee type move)
3b.-->strong weapon special [qcf, A/X] (5 quick fireballs) link into:
3b1.--->super [qcfx2, A/B/X/Y] (slashing strike for multiple hits)
3c.-->super [qcfx2, A/B/X/Y] (ditto)


We are definitely talking about the same thing there. I installed Camtasia 8 but can not for the life of me get it to work with ZSNESW, all tutorials are for Camtasia 6/7 or SNES9x... if anyone can help me, I would gladly upload an annotated combo demonstration video to YouTube, and can then start doing that for SoRR as well...

"Kara Cancel": The action to cancel the Start Up of a move by another one which permit the second action to benefit property from the first one. There is no Kara Cancel in SoRR, but they exist in many CPS1/2 side scroller, and fighting games.

As I have never played SF4, I am only slightly familiar with Kara Cancels, but let's eliminate confusion: in AvP you can cancel your own hitstun into a desperation. Not exactly the same thing, right? Is there a name for that?
In SoRR, using Adam + Remake pause delay, you can cancel your own hitstun into an offensive special.


"Time Stop": The number of frames your character is freeze while connecting a move. In SoRR, you can alterate the Time Stop by changing the pause delay.
[...]
When you use Pause Delay SoR3, the time stop is almost nullify. This give:
- a better frame advantage after any hits which permits more link
- you earn access to the cancel window of any "primary combo" attack much faster.

In a word: more option to attack, easiest crowd control, and overall safer.

When you use Pause Delay Remake, the time stop is regular. It means you have to care more about the recovery of your moves, and you need more planning on attacking since unleashing a regular "primary combo" takes more time to achieve.

Makes sense! I would like to add that Sor2/3 combo type also interacts with this.

I know, Axel 2 is the worst Axel version of the game.
Spoiler:
Axel 3 is fast, with an invincible off special in v5.0a.
Axel 1 is a powerhouse, well balanced with an awfull jump game (attack included).
But Axel 2 is a very challenging character. You can't even rely on your primary combo since it's a five hit, and on pause delay remake, it's a con!
You have to rely a lot on your blitz 2 attack which deal decent damage 40, and his def special which is low damage (16) but very fast with good range!
His jump kick is not bad even if it's low damage (Cool but it has great reach with basic priority.
I love playing him, even if it's a chore sometime, it's highly rewarding when you manage to plan some stuff correctly. Wink
PS: His off special is a bit better in v5.0a since it's invincible to a lot of thing (back attack and projectile excluded), but still the worst off special of the game, even with damage this high (74!)

I agree fully!
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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

Post  BigDarsh on Tue Aug 06, 2013 4:12 pm

Few other imputs:
Blockstun: the number of frame your character or your opponent is freeze after blocking a move. Usually blockstun are a lot shorter than hitstun in fighting games and sidescroller.

Kara Cancel example:
SF3 / SF4 => Kara Throw: input a regular move just before landing a throw. Your throw will earn some range.
CPS-1/2 Sidescroller => Backward Jump: input a regular jump just before tapping Left or Up Left if your facing the right . Your character will earn some invinciblity frame while doing so.

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Re: Pause delay: Remake vs Combined, 5.0 vs 5.0a

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